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Think about this. What's stopping you? I mean, in the great scheme of things, What's stopping you?
Originally Posted by bobnes
Anytime i hear so and so only improvises a small percentage most of the time therefore that equates to 'we' can only improvise blah percent of the time, i always feel impelled to say something.
It's just not true.
I've said before, play just quarter notes, use them rhythmically, play only in the first 5 frets. Now, play Stella by starlight. Ok, licks gone, 'vocabulary'
gone. Just you, and the night, and the music. Do this everyday, even just for 10 mins. Don't 'look' for what to play, Just 'listen' to what the music asks of you. If you do it, and keep doing it, i'm pretty sure it will yield very interesting results.
Allow yourself to sing your own song.
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04-25-2009 09:41 AM
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Thanks, that's really inspiring. I think I would of done it years ago but I had a hang up at the time about letting go of all the scale/mode practice I had invested in, but now I'm just fed up at sounding like, well...like I'm playing scales I guess! I now make the choice to play my guitar as a bird will sing its song! Originally Posted by mike walker
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I'm totally into the 'sing your own song' idea. Originally Posted by mike walker
But doing this as you describe is not so easy and even if it's just quarter notes; it is a very advanced skill.
It's one thing to hear your own lines, your own song, your own voice. I can do that ... but I don't just hear quarter notes. Actually freeing my mind to hear my own voice but at the same time hand-cuffing myself by restricting myself to only hear quarter notes would be more difficult than just letting it rhythmically fly. It seems to me if you're going to be free you've got to be completely free... not thinking of rhythm, not thinking of chords, not thinking of scales, not thinking of arpeggios, just hearing the song in your head... completely free.
Hearing the original lines is one thing, but being able to sponteneously and accurately find those lines on the guitar is a whole different task. And that is what I believe is an incredible high level of ear training and musicianship skill. It seems that if I try to practice that, and I have, I just flail away and accomplish nothing. Maybe it's just me as I have just average ear training innate abilities.
Wouldn't taking the lines you hear and notating them, like a composition, be a task that is more attainable by us more average skilled guitarists? At least when I do that I feel like I'm actually accomplishing something.Last edited by fep; 04-25-2009 at 11:14 AM.
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Bird and Diz were so melodic in their approach. We all are influenced by their playing as much as Louis Armstrong.
After all it is the melody that rules. Bird took it beyond but still the harmony was there. He just stretched it some.
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It's not difficult if you build it up. Pick a chord or 2 and practice impro on them. Let's say you pick Bbma7 for 2 bars to Ab9sharp11 2 bars. Each needs it's own sound. A maj or lyd scale to a Lyd Dominant scale. Stay in one position. Play just quarters but leave spaces (literally you'l be playing quarters half and whole notes) Originally Posted by fep
The point is you'll have to improvise. No vocab to fall back. It forces melody within a restricted context.
The idea that Everyone improvises only a small percentage of the time was the original point of the dialogue. It just doesn't have to be that way.
I guess it will be a little tough if you do this on a standard having not looked at it before. But if you allow yourself to build it up, it can really help with improvising generally.
Take the idea, and give yourself a basic ground level on which to apply it.
Then slowly add to it.
Cheers fella,
Mike
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"Think about this. What's stopping you? I mean, in the great scheme of things, What's stopping you?
Anytime i hear so and so only improvises a small percentage most of the time therefore that equates to 'we' can only improvise blah percent of the time, i always feel impelled to say something.
It's just not true."
Then your beef is not with ME, of course, it is with Emily Remler. You can watch the video yourself at any time on Youtube. I think she was quite an outstanding player indeed. I know of many other musicians who promote such an approach to learning the jazz vocabulary and playing the changes with guide tones. If she says that she "learned how to play that way" and ended up playing with the very best musicians on the face of the earth.....I think I should rather listen to Emily's advice actually.
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I saw that. And i think there are many who play like that. Loved her playing.
It's not the end result that i'm talking about. It's the assumption. And if i met anyone who offered that assumption face to face, and i have, i would argue that point until i was offered a better opinion than mine. And that would be ok too.
It's a pretty diverse idiom. Improvising is a big subject. I don't agree with putting it in boxes that pertain to what our own experience of it is.
I loved Emily's playing. I even bought the guitar she used to play made by a guy called Roger Borys. But i don't agree with her statement.
And you should listen to the advice that sends you on your own path. If that's Emilys, who could argue with that?
Good luck with it Franco,
Mike
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Mike Originally Posted by mike walker
I wholeheartedly agree with your words about following the path that works for the individual. Also, for me, your words, thoughts and philosophy of improvisation and how to go about it with respect to the guitar really resonated with me and I feel it in my bones that that is the approach I shall follow.
I just wanted to know though, if you had a student now who was a complete beginner, had never played a scale, no knowledge of diatonic harmony, or the repetoire etc. Basically a student with no practical music experience. Would you boldly go with that approach from day 1 (after the student had got used to fretting and picking notes of course) and not encourage any scale practice, lick copying and the like?
My reason for asking is that maybe I take for granted that I am in a good position to go for that approach, being that I have done a lot of foundation work prior to this method of 'true improvisation'.
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Bob,
Good question. I wouldn't. I suggest this with you, because you have foundations already (at least i'm assuming you do!!??).
I'd put all of the obvious foundations into place whilst encouraging freedom thru listening, self penned composition, harmonic exploration, and a healthy capacity to question the opinions of others, including mine.
Learn all you can about music. I play the same maj scale as charlie parker and John Scofield and Wes and Bach and the young kid in the guitar shop and you.
Learn all you can.
Good luck fella,
Mike
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cheers, i get it now, it's about following my own intuition, and everyone else to follow theirs Originally Posted by mike walker
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Absolutely. I love Be bop. I love licks played like they were the funkiest dance moves, but what i love the most is the search, the struggle, to find the melodies within you, in the moment. I don't say it's for all, but for me, it's a life long love.
Thanks bob,
Mike
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04-26-2009, 01:27 PM #37METOPERARETIRED GuestRe; Classical Music,the "No one worries about" post.. Originally Posted by franco6719
Totally incorrect my friends. As a Principal Tympanist/Percussionist for 33 years in The Metropolitan Opera/Symphony Orchestra at Lincoln Center and having played with virtually all the Great Maestri in the world from Stokowski, Bernstein,Von Karajan,Leisndorf,James Levine and 100s more, plus years with the Boston Symphony/Pops and other major Orchestras, and being a Jazz player myself (Vibes and Trapset) I can and will say with much conviction that Classical Music performing from those of us, the top players in the world(with much humility) is not playing the notes and whatever else was written in the post that caused me to reply..
First of all some conductors do exactly as the word implies, they 'Conduct the orchestra with tempi,pointing for entrances etc, and you get a good performance of any Music'.. HOWEVER, there were and are Maestri that "Play the Orchestra" like it's their instrument and do not even much of the time give strict Baton direction as their facial expression and body movement 'Carves a completely different Musical Masterpiece in a way that the Musicians feel as if they have never played it before'..
The sound of each player is different as the connection between Conductor and 104 Players is very special.. Words can NOT express the creativity and phrasing that Classical Players can do and get this ~ Many Classical Players (not many string players), but Woodwinds and Brass and Percussion players were in Jazz.. TRUE ! Like myself, in the Met. Orchestra, we had several players from the Big Band days who could bend/enhance tone/phrase etc. only as you seem to feel Jazz players do and I wish you could all sit in a Symphony/Opera Orchestra and hear what I am saying..
"Bird" was and remains a great player but some Jazzers, if you will referred to Bird as a Man in searh of a note.. Conversely, "Miles","Blakey" and others preached this.. "Don't play to many notes!" BeBop, the very word was not a style, as when Dizzy was asked during his young days what he was playing, thinking the question was the name of the TUNE, he answered BeBop, the name of the chart.. Thus arrived BeBop and if it were not for BeBop and the Blues, Gershwin, Kurt Weill, and many more Classical writers would not have written the way they did.. Check out the Operas of Kurt Weill like 'TheRise and Fall of theCity of Mahoganny'.. It's Jazz.. I played the North American Premier in 1975 at The Met. and I was on Jazz Drums right below the Podium of Lames Levine, and although Weill wrote out the Drumset part, I was kicking ass, taking liberties from my background driving big band and small group Jazz, dropping Bombs etal and the reviews an comments of many critics and of my peers were WOW Herb, that was something else.. Gershwin & Lenny Bernstein speak for themselves in their Music.. Bluesy, far out chord changes, augmented and flatted notes and chords everywhere.. My point is YES, although a Jazz player can create on the spot he has no more flexability than a fine Classical player.. Want to debate further with me.. Bring it on !
hey, I'll get some top Symphony players in on it as well..
If this post/reply seemed in any way disrespecfull to anyone, I am sorry, but I tell it like I experienced and still experience it..
With much respect to all of we Jazz players and some who also maybe experienced in fine Classical Ensemble playing, I close with the thoughts of many fine Conductors who said ~ "Please look at me with your ears"..
In Symphonic/Operatic/Broadway Show literature you have to know the score as well as the conductor because if there's a pickup to your entrance or the singer on the stage is doing his/her own phrasing you must hear and wait to get your note in "The 10 Circle" for any of you that shoot competitions or were in the Armed Forces..
This is a wrap as I got to eat something..
Nive talking to you friends,
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This quote is attributed to Wes. I have heard it from players like Joe Diorio, Pat Martino, and others who are considered the top improvisers of jazz. They all agree with it. The statement is, when up there, they are playing thru their collections of licks/scales/arps, etc, meaning stuff they have worked on. Though not played verbatum every time, it is not new material, but reworked every time. The estimated amount of truly new ground on your best night is about 30%. That is, transcending just playing your bag of tricks and getting to a new place. Originally Posted by mike walker
I think to disagree with the above means not quite understanding the original quote. I have never heard anyone who truly improvises all the time. I just don't think it is possible. We have this amount of material we have all worked on. Some have bigger collections to choose from than others, and the execution or ordering of it can be spontaneous, but it is still stuff we have worked on.
It is like the whole "playing what you hear" thing. You play what you hear because you play what you have worked on, and therefore hear it. When guys like Pizzarelli scat while they solo, it is the fruit of untold hours of working on that skill with a pool of material.
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Yep, i hear that. But you went from impro 30% of the time to 'improvises all of the time'. I think i'd have a problem with both. I don't improvise all of the time. But i don't play lick after lick either.
Discussing these things on the net can sound a bit cold and i don't mean to sound arrogant in the least. I feel Wes, Pat martino, are not particularly the 'top improvisors in jazz'. But this is just my opinion. Their thing encompasses so many vital aspects, time, swing, groove, forward motion, phrasing. Their impro is not the top thing for me. When i say impro, i mean following an idea, responding to the rest of the group, taking chances, etc etc.
People who have lovely time and feel, their own sound and phrasing, like Abercrombie, Jim Hall, Wayne shorter, Herbie hancock, John Taylor, are more in line with where i'm coming from.
I understand the qoute. And i have heard it many times. But always in circles where licks were the vocabulary most of the time.
The other problem is, many folks like to hear that vocab. They kinda like the familiarity. And that's fine. But for me, that vocab has to have all the ingredients of groove and pacing and phrasing etc, in order for me to really enjoy it.
Like i said, Pick a spot on the guitar, play only quarters, minims and whole notes. Don't move from that spot. Play on a favourite standard. Ask Wes, or martino, or, Joe diorio or anyone to do that, and you'll hear improvising.
Don't sing what you play, play what you sing.
Good discussion, as always,
MikeLast edited by mike walker; 04-26-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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This post helps me understand what you are saying better. I will have to take your word for what you are saying about Abercrombie, Herbie and Taylor, as I don't listen to those guys. Originally Posted by mike walker
I have done what you are talking about. I have been forced to play for an extended amount of time over a static chord. What comes out first of course is all the stuff we have at our fingertips. It typically takes me about a couple of minutes or so to blow thru that stuff and really listen and pay attention to what I am playing. A good exercise, and one that will stretch you, no doubt.
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That's great. Yes it's a good exercise, indeed. I kind of like to do unrelated chords in the same position. Drives you nuts at first, but after a while you start to see where stuff is. Licks are usually tied to rhythms, which is why only playing quarters with rests is good. Ya just can't play those licks!! Originally Posted by derek
Thanks for the input, Derek,
Mike
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so I guess bebop improvisation can be, but dosen't have to be lick after lick.
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Absolutely. Think about what makes up that sound. The components. Originally Posted by bobnes
I could write them here, but you look at it first and let me know what you come up with. If it was a question in an exam; 'What are the components of Be Bop?' What would you put?
Mike
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a set tune (melody and chords), one or more musicians to improvise over that tune, and I'd also say it would have to swing to define it as Jazz/bop. Some would also say heavy use of a blues tonality but the raw elements are so open that I'd say it was up to the player to liberally interpret it from those first three components. So, in my opinion, I think it boils down to 4 things, 1) a tune, peice of music or musical idea, 2) musician(s) to play it 3) Musicians to improvise on that idea 4) and for it to swing to nail it on as Jazz.
When you think about it, these components enable more freedom to work outside the established language or licks of Jazz. So really, when broken down to it's raw components in this way, bop is just Jazz, and Jazz is improvised music, in swing time.
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and I'd also add use of any note at the musicians own discretion. I was going to intitally launch into flat 5ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths etc but by doing this the musician is being defined by the language that has gone before. Therefore, any note(s), any note(s) you want!
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Great!
You could add chromatics- Rhythm is a big one- how you accent certain notes-
For instance, if i said, hey bob, i want ya to write me a 32 bar tune AABA, using arpeggios and small scalic units, chromatic notes into certain arpeggio notes, mostly short rhythmic figures with some longer figures interspersed, then you'd have some of the criteria for writing a bop tune. You could listen to some bop tunes for a while and get a feel for the rhythmic units used.
Or you could go ahead and write a boppy tune from the given criteria without even listening to it.
It might sound weird at first, but what the heck, it could be a very interesting learning experience.
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The whole thing here seems to have revolve around a question of numbers. No one can know for certain that Wes improvises 30% of the time, Coltrane 42.32 % of the time, John Scofield 52.1 % of the time, Keith Jarrett 63.2% of the time, etc..
It seems probable that there are differences even among the best players and that, while almost no one improvises all of the time (except perhaps in the most experimental free jazz situation...where is it NOT necessarily a good thing), it is not a good idea to fall back on licks or patterns too much.
I think that's the general idea.
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That's the general idea. And the 30% scenario gets quoted a lot. And always in situations where it's even possibly less than 30%. Originally Posted by franco6719
Even coltrane on giant steps, slams those tricky changes with the same idea over and over.
And that's ok. I love it. But, as you say, many improvisers don't fall back on licks, the whole point for these cats is to improvise. And when i hear someone searching with melodies,instantly composing, i get chills up the spine.
Lovely discussion here,
Mike
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this has been a great discussion I agree. I think that the end result or the ultimate objective of improvisation is the key here. Whether you get 'clued' into the music via a heavy digestion of established licks or you play entirely from your own head, at some point I believe, and it probably takes the same length of time to get there either way, you will take off and fly. I believe the objective is to get to that state of true inspiration, as much and as often as possible.
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"Even coltrane on giant steps, slams those tricky changes with the same idea over and over."
Of course. I was also realizing that a lot of it has to do with the type of tune you are playing as well. Giant Steps, for example, is the kind of tune that most people are glad to say "I nailed those arpeggios or patterns by working on it for six years, three hours a day, etc.." or just forget about it. Of course, there are exceptions to everything and it is possible to be original and spontaneous even on Giant Steps (at least at reasonable tempos) I suppose. This gets back to the point about bebop tunes in general. Personally, I feel much, much more comfortable just letting go and "following the music" when I am not worrying about "making the changes" on fifty two-five ones flying by. I will turn on the radio and play along with some "light jazz" (as it's called nowadays) or some Chakha Khan or even a blues and I find there are more "inspirational" moments (or as close as I get to them) and much less thinking and planning.
If I'm playing on 4 on 6, on the other hand, I hit the series of two-fives and go into a sort of exercise mode. That lick from....no the other one here, there, etc.. This could be a question of experience and time. But, in any case, for tunes like that, it's either licks and patterns to make it through the changes, albeit mechanical and repetitive, or complete BS.
"And that's ok. I love it. But, as you say, many improvisers don't fall back on licks, the whole point for these cats is to improvise. And when i hear someone searching with melodies,instantly composing, i get chills up the spine. "
I feel this way most of all then I listen to Keith Jarret on the Standards albums. Undeniable. I feel like every note is meant and felt and each "outburst" is really a development of the last all the way through the solo. It's almost like a different kind of improvisation. You feel like singing along with him or almost that it's coming out of YOU or something.
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