View Poll Results: How chromatic are you?
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If you had to guess, how often do you use chromatics in your improvs? Approach notes, enclosures, neighbours, chromatic runs etc.... And by how "often", I mean for every 100 bars of improv, how many bars will contain a chromatic device of some sort?
Last edited by princeplanet; 03-07-2015 at 09:08 AM.
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03-07-2015 09:04 AM
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Not very chromatic, I just use the basic 12 notes and occasionally the ones in between. I like thinking in terms of approach chords and the collections of related notes or less mindfully getting from here to there.
I'll try to bring a pitch content counter to my next gig (sorry, couldn't resist).And by how "often", I mean for every 100 bars of improv, how many bars will contain a chromatic device of some sort?
Seriously, how does one answer that question?
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Haha, yeah I know, there's no way to know for sure, and if we guessed, we're sure to be wrong. But how chromatic do you think you are? Surely we know our own stylistic habits to at least take a stab? I only ask because I'm starting to think I like chromatics more than a lot of current payers, and I kinda expect this poll to bear this out. However, sometimes polls on this forum yield very surprising results....
Originally Posted by bako
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Do clams count?
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Well, sure, if you own em! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I'm calling anything not in the implied key area as chromatic.... There are generally relationships and organization which create the chromatic note(s) but I guess in a straight tonal setting... I'm not very vanilla.
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If I'm playing what I hear, 10%
If I'm playing what I think, 75%
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Would you define Blue Monk as a chromatic melody?
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Weird question. Using chromatics is not really the same thing in jazz. A passing note between a b7 and a 1 is chromatic but so "inside" for jazz that Dave Baker wrote a hundred and fifty books about it. A major triad a half step above a Maj7 chord is free of enclosures and chromatic notes but sounds way outside ... which one of the two qualifies as chromatic?
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monk is how chromatic is spelled.. Originally Posted by bako
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I would say that we should create a distinction between the terms chromatic and inside. For me, they are not truly related to each other, but they just happen to overlap at times. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Rough definitions I'd use =
Chromatic : Notes adjascent to each other. Generally 3 or more notes.
Inside : Well this one's a bit harder. Differs for each of us...anything not in the implied key area (thanks Reg!)
In general as jazzers, we hear a passing note between b7 and 1 as falling within our implied key area. Hence it is both chromatic and inside.
A major triad a half step above a maj7 is not chromatic to itself, however it is outside. So it is both non-chromatic and outside.
This is something that is guided by our ears, so I guess to a player of another style not attuned to the kind of sound that we are, chromatic would pretty much = outside, but not because they are directly related, but as a result of a perfect overlap.
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Originally Posted by pushkar000
Whats being left out of this talk is rhythm also plays into if a chromatic note is in or out. I forget who said it, might of been HR, but the saying goes.... There are no wrong notes, only bad articulation.
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There's also the fact that harmony can be chromatic and that everything we play falls into a harmonic context as long as the group is playing changes. So if you look horizontally a Db triad over a Cmaj7 isn't chromatic. If you look vertically it is ... B C and Db for example. Like from a classical theory perspective saying music is chromatic usually refers to the harmony rather than melody. Bach used tons of jazzy devices like enclosures and approach notes but his music is considered Tonal. Wagner not so much but his music is often consider extremely chromatic, pushing the limits of even being able to be analyzed in a tonal context at all.
So sure, approach notes are chromatic in a narrow melodic sense. But approach chords? Playing a Db resolving to a C over a Cmaj7 is essentially a more complex version of the same thing even if no adjacent half steps occur melodically.
im just throwing a wrench in the discussion a little because it seems like a very surface level thing ... Even if I don't play tons of chromatic scale runs my concept of what I'm doing might be highly chromatic. I do rather like a lot of bebop chromaticism though and I definitely see where you've noticed it might be a little more out of fashion these days than in the past
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re: Db major played in a C major context
I can hear Db related to both subdominant Fm or as a tritone sub of G7.
As Doc says, rhythm matters.
On the weak side of the beat, it can be a simple passing chord.
More prominently featured it's possible to treat it as kind of a resolving suspension/tension.
It can anticipate upcoming notes in the harmony or reference notes drawn from the recent past.
It can also result in some unplanned polychords......we've all been there.
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Yea... you can make anything inside and diatonic by a relationship or application of something. But isn't the question very simple.
Melodically do you use chromatic notes...either altering notes of implied scale or... adding notes that approach other notes by simitone...1/2 steps.
I would think adding other contexts would make the question almost impossible to organize results.The basic question is do you use them, and how much. Not how you use them... the organization behind the use.
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I have no clue.. I used to play my solos the same way every time but now days I never play anything the same way...I sometimes follow a road map and try to keep the melodies relevant and I may say I want to get certain technical gymnastic in the solo some where but .. one day may be 50% next day 10%
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Yes, I think more modern players eschew the predilection with "boppish" chromaticism that older players may have had. I guess I'm wondering if folks on this forum are still rooted in Bop to some degree, or if they prefer more modern concepts (quartal, pentatonics, triad pairs etc etc)... Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Like the Outside thread what is Chromaticism is it non-diatonic notes, are approach notes chromaticism or just ornamentation, passing tones chromaticism, is just a composition tool. Then is the chromaticism coming from altering harmony so the linear notes some with the harmony. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I think terms like outside and chromaticism overloaded words to use a computer programming term, that the mean is determined by context.
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I don't understand why people are making parallels b/n chromaticism and "outsideness". Heck, even the most "cocktailish" piano playing (ie- overly chromatically embellished) can sound as "inside" as can be.
Some of you want a better definition (at least of what I mean by it), but all I can add to make it simple enough is to say that I mean Bop type chromatic embellishments, passing notes, enclosures, the standard stuff.
But yeah, I realise it's hard to reach any conclusion regardless of the result. I mean you could answer less than 10%, but would that make you really modern, or really primitive ?
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I use grace notes all the time... and their almost always chromatic. I use 1/2 step in bebop style with dominant reference, generally chromatic... those are very basic bebop chromatic applications.
So maybe a conclusion could be I like constant structure and dominant chromatic melodic usage...
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Cool ... I was playing devil's advocate a little bit to try and get a better idea of what you actually were going for. I get what you mean. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Interesting poll. Never gave it much thought till now. I think I'm actually somewhere in between 10% and 25%. Chromatic notes are something I treat with special care not to over use for now, as I'm developing my style and technique. When they're in the pocket they sound and feel great. I guess it's something that's used more often as one attains mastery
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My listening and playing are centered on bop and swing. It's what I like and what I play. Chromatics are probably the fundamental glue that strings the solo notes together.
To me it represented a breakthrough when my limited intellect finally realized what the bebop players were doing. No, their notes aren't run together in anything remotely close to nursery rhyme level etudes like playing a scale over and over but most of the 12 tones are generally packed into the phrasing. Take Charlie Parkers famous runs. Often 9 of 12 tones are used per key center, very artfully and creatively sequenced to avoid repetition while not losing the key center.
Monk is said to have been told his playing was weird and immediately came back and sharply retorted to the half wit making the comment "what do you mean weird". Monks playing is anything but weird. The logic is there like the Parthenon standing on a granite foundation. That's why his music has stood the test of time and is also widely respected by many hall of fame jazz players. Monk's understanding of harmony and chordal extensions (9,11,13, etc) and how he phrased them was just unconventional to the ears of people steeped in the "I got Rhythm" cycle of 4ths or 5ths, depending upon which direction you care to take around the circle. A current favorite, to give an example, is In Walked Bud. It's fundamentally chromatic while maintaining the integrity and coherence of a key center. In other words it's logical as opposed to being haphazard or atonal. Chromatic? You bet and very nicely done by a master.
To OP regarding another thread some time ago: A very long thread, with some rabble rousing tongue in cheek responses until being properly dressed down on a very good question about how to pre-hear solos. After some thought and much percolation time I think it's best done just like speaking. You have to start with a vocabulary of syllables or in our case note phrases that have been practiced repeatedly (otherwise you're apt to often spew jibberish, or worse, be repetitive). Unless your name is Bud Powell or Art Tatum I don't think you can pre hear maj 3 to maj6 to 2 to 5 to 1 at 200 beats per minute. But you can certainly practice the run and know ahead of time what it will sound like at 200 bpm. This is only1 phrase in a vocabulary that will stretch into the hundreds or thousands. Exactly like speaking, the practiced syllables or phrases are there in memory. When you are speaking the syllables are strung together into words and the overall idea of what you are trying to say is voiced. While one group of words or notes is being voiced another idea is being loaded in buffer, the prehearing stage, where there is a moment to vet the idea and to discard or change it before the next group of words are voiced. By practicing and building the vocabulary you build the ability to pre hear so you can be an artful story teller.Last edited by 39cord; 03-14-2015 at 02:08 AM.
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Nice post 39cord! You don't post much, but when you do you're very much on point. Cheers!
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Bill Evans wrote at piece called TTT (Twelve Tone Tune). If I played that straight, what chromatic rating would that earn?
Does the head or the genre of jazz effect how I'd rate myself?
Does this poll apply to players who use free improvisation as part of the song form or even as a genre?
If I'm playing an approach chord, and I'm inside those changes, do I consider that a high or low chromatic rating?
If I play a Herbie Nichols band on Tuesday, and play Dixieland Wednesday, should I average the two?
Does the use of a b13 on a dominant chord going to a major get me a higher rating?
Isn't this a little like going to a book reading and asking the author the percentage of adjectives he uses?
DavidLast edited by TH; 03-14-2015 at 06:32 AM.
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