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Another one of the beginning of year videoes to rewatch. Another for beginners and learn how learn like the legends did the "oral tradition" as Hal talks about. It wasn't a bunch of books, or videos, or other tools, it was listen and listen and listen and then repeat.
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01-04-2015 05:05 PM
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Yep.
I'm kinda realizing I never learned a thing from a jazz book, really. Not to use, just names for concepts mostly. Or I might read about an idea and try it, but it never makes sense to me until i hear it used in actual context. And yet I find myself contemplating buying another. Time to give that up, maybe, and just keep learning tunes.
For me, tunes are everything.
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That was great, thanks!
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Yeah. I haven't listened to it but based on Mr B's comment, that's why I said in another thread that I've never read a theory book all the way through. Or a method book. I just don't get that. It's about playing and listening, and listening and listening and playing. The theory is very simple and basic. I'll listen to Hal tomorrow.
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As I mentioned in another thread from the biographies of the Jazz legends I've been reading, they didn't even discuss music much among themselves. They would listen to each other and go home and woodshed what they heard. Even recent Lage Lund said studied with Peter Bernstein, but it turned to to them just getting to together and playing. So listening and playing developing your ear is the real teacher.
Originally Posted by jbyork
Last edited by docbop; 01-05-2015 at 02:32 AM.
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I think the most important thing in jazz is phrasing and you can't learn that from a book.
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38 years ago I went to the library to find a jazz book and they had none. No internet, how could you research potential book titles? I went out of town to another bigger library...nothing. Stopped at the only bookstore on the way home and discovered William Russo's "Jazz Composition & Orchestration", it was the only jazz book at the store. $10.95 for 826 pages. I bought it. I have never bought another jazz book in 38 years. I think I've saved a lot of time and money....
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I get it, it's real easy to dump on books. "no one ever learned to play jazz out of a book". Yes, the best students are those who work on tunes and are self driven, with the initial assistance of a proper teacher. Who has ever claimed that it's possible to learn jazz from a book? No one. Then the question becomes, what is the role of reading materials such as books in learning to play jazz?
But here's the thing--good teachers know how to incorporate books into their teaching program. My teacher is the best instructor I know (George Benaon asked to study with him; Joe DiOrio once told him that he always wanted to study with him but was "too intimifdted to ask", when Oscar Peterson, who has played with world class guitarists, wanted to learn about the guitar, he took guitar lessons with him; his playing was so beautiful that he once bought Peggy Lee to tears; Joe Pass once said what he played was "art" and want Joe played, by comparison, was "bullshit"; Johnny Smith said he was "one of the very few who could play both jazz and classical music with artistic conviction" and was, at the same time, a "dedicated educator"; I could go on...) , and I am thankful he had me buy and go through Roni Ben Hurr"s "Chordability". my teacher considers v Eps "Harmonic Mechanisms" the "Bible" and said we, as students of jazz, are forever indebted to Mr. V Eps for that.
So yes, books have their place. But what place?
Vic Juris I think posed the question correctly "if you can learn one or two important things that you can incorporate into your playing, the book will have been worth it"
thats the the standard by which I hold books and also things like master classes or video lessons by-- if there's one or two things that I can use and incorporate into my every day playing it will have been worth it..
yes, Learning jazz is the process of doing, listening, imitating tunes and solos. But that should not be an excuse for a kind of anti-intellectualism that dismisses offhandedly sources of information or potential sources of information.
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You need to know yourself and how you work... what works for me may not work for you and visa versa. The same with practicing.... It also has to do with what one wants from music and what they want to do with music.
Knowing theory etc... has really helped me over the years. It's not like a disease that keeps me from playing music.
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One very important aspect that can come from a teacher is structure, especially in a world that is filled with information over-load from the Internet. Methodically going through a book can help with this as well,
though I honestly have never done that with a jazz guitar book. I did however go through all the right-hand Guiliani exercises early on, and I have never regretted the time spent on that.Last edited by srlank; 01-05-2015 at 10:18 AM.
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Navdeep
As you say, nothing wrong with books. But I think what is implied by dismissive comments on this forum about books is thatthere is a certain kind of person who is so enamored by the academic aspects of jazz improv they never learn how to *play*. There is nothing inherently anti-intellectual about such comments: but they come from the starting notion that the goal is to be able to play.
Now, if all one wants is to understand better what some of the more thoughtful giants of our instrument (e.g. Goodrick, Hall, Stowell, Rosenwinkel, van eps, etc) did, that's cool, and books are great for that. But unfortunately, very few of us have the right combination of intellect/technique/work ethic/luck/talent etc to become fluid playing at the musical level of these giants, and the down side is that one becomes extremely knowledgeable about a bunch of musical ideas one is completely unable to use, and the attempt to use all the information one knows lends up sounding forced and unmusical, or at least, we're unable to apply these ideas outside a solo guitar context.
I've been down this path myself, and it took a long time for me to understand that the fastest growth comes from being in interesting *playing* situations, and to position yourself to be in interesting playing situations requires that you work your way up the "theoretical" ladder. You won't get asked to join a group playing advanced material if you haven't already shown your control of simpler stuff.
Your
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"Well that was all done with the books, you know.... Study is absolutely necessary." Charlie Parker to Paul Desmond.
(It's around the 3:10 mark).
Paul had mentioned hearing Charlie quote (on a record) from a Klose saxophone (method) book. Elsewhere, Earl Hines said that Charlie and Dizzy took their music books with them to gigs and while on breaks, they hunted up things in the books that would fit over the changes in the tunes the band played.
Doesn't mean everyone has to do it. But that Bird and Diz---who were already gigging---found it important to do tells me that books have helped some jazz musicians....
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It's stupid to throw the baby out with the bath water. Everything has it's place. Certainly you can learn from books. Galper said himself when he was researching Bill Evans he looked for extant material. But it's the guys who think they can LEARN primarily from books is the issue. Bird had études and pieces that he worked out of, not theory books to teach him HOW to play.
No book ever taught me how to play. I got some exercises and some ideas.
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And just for the record--I'm not dumping on books either--i have many. A whole shelf full off 'jazz' books.
It just seems to me more and more I've never picked up a concept and actually made it part of my playing from a book. And the ones I did actually pick up were mosrty from 1 or 2 books, Ted Greene's stuff...i like references, not methods...
Do this weekend I was thinking about buying the recent Tim Miller/Mick Goodrick book...and then I thought...maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should sit down and figure out 2 Tim Miller chord things I hear and try using them...sometimes the problem with books, for me, is too much information.
Books have been helpful for putting names to ideas i either stumbled upon or copped from someone else.
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I totally get the "too much information" thing. The v Eps "Harmonic Mechanisms" book is way above my amateur rank "no pay" grade. I could turn to any page of Chord Chemostry and immediately think, "what the hell am I going to do with this???" Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In hindsight, the thread here about Goorick's magnum opus "almanacs " is also probably way too massive and convuluted to be of much practical use--unless one knows how to organize it.
that said, I did order the Miller-Goorick book--at only one hundred pages, it's probwbly concentrated enough with enough precise information to be of important practical use. I've really been trying to improvise poplyphincally-pianistically-trying to go beyond 5th string root drop 2 and 6 string drop 3 chords, which are, for all practical purposes, the meat and potatoes "cowboy category" chords for jazz guitarists.
It takes a long time (for me, anyway) to organize and implement this information (triads, harmonized intervals, triad pairs, three note voicings with guide tones a la Lerch---who got it from Bickert, Greene, and Breau--, the harmonized major minor 6th "Barry Harris" diminished scale, etc) such that it becomes as practical and second nature as the "cowboy category" chords. But this is the sort of stuff I'm really interested in a solo guitar context, as someone who primarily plays for my own enjoyment and only ocassionally plays with other people.
The danger with books is indeed that too much information is presented, largely which remains purely theoretical and not integrated into practical use. I guess one has to arrive at a point where one knows what one is looking for and how to use it.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Hi I'm Steve and I'm a Jazz Book Alcoholic and hoping that is over for various reasons, but especially from Hal's various videos. Think about the all the books though and how I used them I see that my goal was rarely to ever work through an entire book and only a couple books did I do it. A lot of the times I bought a book especially in days you could actually look thru books before buying them was just for a few pages of the book. I'm not one of those that can read and memorize instantly something or like a few people I've know sit in a bookstore taking notes and then putting the book back.
So for me books are a source of new ideas and I could read a concept or even just play an two bar example and next thing I know I'm spending hours, days, weeks try to play it, then work it into my playing, then for me the fun part how can I start changing it to get more out of it. To me the learning process is read/hear a concept, then practice to get the mechanics of it down. Trouble many have is that's where they stop thinking they know something, to me the real learning comes when you start screwing with it, that's where you learn what works, what doesn't work, and how you can morph it into becoming part of you.
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It's a little interesting... back in the early 70's I moved to Boston and went to Berklee... (actually graduated) not to learn how to play, to learn about music, jazz. composition, theory etc... So I was taking between 16 and up to 24 units, took all my academic BS classes back at Cal. Berkeley... I studied with everyone in the school and outside. Piano with James Williams and Ray Santisi, Drums/rhythmic concepts with Alan Dawson...yada, yada, played gigs many nights... I could read, had chops and could cover the rhythm section thing, I understood what my job was...(rare for guitarist still).
The thing... there just weren't that many books out for playing jazz guitar, I had been through the Baker books. Had classical lessons as a kid... but really had to buy the records and go check out the different players to physically see how they played. Eventually I could cover what most pros could play and became somewhat fearless... because I didn't know any better... Where I'm going is you can usually cover just about anything... playing, but the understanding etc... takes much more time and the book approach can really speed up the learning process.
Even more useful,
Get your sight reading skills together... everything becomes much easier.
Nice comments docbop
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Books are great, but some folks chase after them like they're hoping to find the holy grail that will magically impart some knowledge that will allow them to avoid all the hard work that needs to be done.
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Wow, who is your teacher? Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
yeah. that's why i always say that a person should show up at college already knowing how to play (like Reg did) because college will take all of your time with other things - sitting in class, learning theory and harmony, ear training and sight singing, keyboard, arranging, composition, conducting, music history & literature, etc. all good, but time consuming.
and then there are the required courses in general ed. and liberal arts etc.
there are only so many hours in a day.
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Why its good to go to a community college first and know off as much of the general education as possible. First it's much cheaper and when you do move up to university can focus more on your major's classes. Even in music school when young student or students with just basic skills we'd recommend they take a year, get a good teacher and practice. In music school like Berklee, MI, etc they higher level you come in more you get out the of the school. Why pay Berklee or MI prices to learn fundamentals. Also some in that year of prep some realize music school isn't the jam and party they think it's going to be. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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#1 criticism of jazz is that it has become stale. Originally Posted by docbop
Coincidence?
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#1 criticism of jazz by people who A. Don't listen to jazz or B. Listen solely to records on verve and blue note by mostly dead people. Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Or people who won't take the time to listen to any music that requires some knowledge to appreciate like Jazz and classical. Especially in the U.S. they just want formula four on the floor music or elevator versions of classical to go with there hotel art prints. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Perhaps. But even people who seek out jazz mostly look for the safe stuff--something that won't upset their digestion. I know a cutting edge saxophone player who says there really is no venue to play cutting edge music in LA, for example. You have to play something that goes well with brunch.
On the other hand, I went to a bassist's convention once, where you would expect a more sophisticated crowd. I got to hear Ron Carter, and a lot of people who sounded just like Ron Carter. There were some unique individuals too.
I question the wisdom of making looking backwards the cornerstone of a forward looking art. But I could be totally wrong.
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