The Ultimate goal of Jazz Theory?

[P4guitar]

The purpose of music theory is to sell books and DVD's. The purpose of learning tunes and practicing is to be able to play.

[nick1994]

The purpose of music theory is to sell books and DVD's. The purpose of learning tunes and practicing is to be able to play.

I agree, people who are starting off are misled to believe that the ability to play lies in some theory book. Doesn't matter what theory book it is, you're not getting any better without practice.

[Cunamara]

I agree, people who are starting off are misled to believe that the ability to play lies in some theory book. Doesn't matter what theory book it is, you're not getting any better without practice.

Maybe even a step further than that- you won't get good at playing jazz without playing with jazz musicians. This is the biggest hurdle to get over- the aspiring jazz musician has to find real jazz musicians to play with and learn the music in real time. You can transcribe solos, you can learn theory, you can use playalongs, you can run all the scales 'til you're blue in the face and know that stuff inside and out. Get on the bandstand with real jazz musicians and they will hand you back your butt on a plate in the first tune. That's where the education really starts; if you approach it with the right attitude and you will learn to play honest jazz.

I've been messing around with this for nearly 35 years and I can't do it near as well as I'd like, in large part because I have pretty rarely played with master musicians- I can find and play with people more or less at my own level. When I've had the opportunity to play with people who *can* authentically play jazz it is amazing what a learning experience that is. I really don't think that it is possible to really learn to play jazz sitting in one's living room looking at an instruction book. You need to be sitting next to someone and play with them in real time, where they can say "here's how it works," show you and guide you.

The modern day problem for learning to play jazz is finding those playing opportunities which are harder and harder to come by. There aren't jam sessions in every town, there aren't a plethora of touring bands, there aren't even real jazz musicians to take lessons from in a lot of places. Hence there are jazz camps, Skype lessons, boatloads of DVDs, conservatories, college degrees, etc.

[pingu]

I just finished reading a book that might be of some benefit to those in this discussion that has helped me personally put things in perspective and find some focus in my practice routine and jazz theory study.

In the book he discusses the concept of practicing out of fear, which really hit home for me.

What is 'practicing out of fear' please ?

intriguing ...........

[Vladan]

Must be the fear of playing before audience, so ending in endless practicing?

[princeplanet]

The purpose of music theory is to sell books and DVD's. The purpose of learning tunes and practicing is to be able to play.

You think Sco doesn't know some theory? Or Lage Lund, Rosenwinkle, Pat Metheny and Jonathon Kriesberg? John Coltrane, Freddie Hubbard, Duke Ellington etc etc etc...

If you just wanna play half as good as J Bruno or R Conti, then yeah, forget theory and just copy them.

But if you want to add something back to the vast Jazz canon, like the gentlemen listed above (along with hundreds of others), then don't be afraid of a little theory. If your playing vs learning theory ratio is 75 : 25 in favor of playing, you shouldn't have too many regrets down the track if you're hoping to find your own path.

To quote Miles again "Go down a different street"...

[destinytot]

What is 'practicing out of fear' please ?

intriguing ...........

"Valerie: In your book you talk about how fear paralyses. Fear-based learning and fear-based teaching. Can you tell us about that?
Kenny: Fear-based learning is not practising with good focus and being in a whole because of this fear that you’ll never become good. It drives you into a diluted state where you’re to yourself being toxic… Skimming all these things, hoping something works for you. That will be one of the main reasons why you won’t achieve your goal… Fear of practicing is practicing things in bulk and just skimming the surface because you’re afraid that you will die before you achieve your thing. Fear-base playing is playing and being afraid of how well you’re gonna play by questioning. There is absolutely no room for questioning during a performance. All the questioning should be done during practising. Fear-based teaching has to do with teachers that suppress something in others. Some people are not secured in their musicianship and hide behind the teacher. In that way not only the teacher doesn’t enjoy but the students are not well-served."


from VYGoes360 Kenny Werner

[destinytot]

If your playing vs learning theory ratio is 75 : 25 in favor of playing, you shouldn't have too many regrets down the track if you're hoping to find your own path.

I find this process analogous to knights' initiation:

"The knights who found the Grail were the ones who followed their own path, which was determined by prayer, intuition, and courage – not by others' paths.

This is not to say the Knights lived lives of isolation. They gathered around their Table regularly, to enjoy the camaraderie of other braves souls. They shared their adventures and celebrated what they found." (from Mapping Your Own Spiritual Journey )

Personally, what attracts me to the music is the possibility of harvesting Beauty and Joy. Theory can tell me how to cultivate these, but it can't till the soil.

[boatheelmusic]

AlsoRan, with all respect intended, why not try just one quarter at Jimmy Bruno's Guitar workshop?

While you won't talk too much theory, you will be exposed to a disciplined, ordered approach that will bring out your music and strengthen your ear.

It works for me and for many others.

For $60 per quarter, you can progress at your own speed and receive personal, relevant feedback from a proven teacher and musician.

Worth a shot, IMHO.

Bill

[AlsoRan]

AlsoRan, with all respect intended, why not try just one quarter at Jimmy Bruno's Guitar workshop?

While you won't talk too much theory, you will be exposed to a disciplined, ordered approach that will bring out your music and strengthen your ear.

It works for me and for many others.

For $60 per quarter, you can progress at your own speed and receive personal, relevant feedback from a proven teacher and musician.

Worth a shot, IMHO.

Bill

I never really considered this option. But the truth is, I still don't have the time to practice regularly. Some weeks I might get an hour a day and maybe two on weekends. Others, I might not be able to touch a guitar for 3 or 4 days.

So I am just having fun and am going to internalize one idea at a time - slowly - using Bert Ligon's Linear Harmony along with the Fundamental Changes 2-5-1.

My main concern, besides keeping up what chops I have, is to know where I want to go, where I came from, and how I enter and leave each chord change. This should keep me busy for most of 2015.

Thanks for the tip, however. If time gets freed up....

[GuyBoden]

Scientific Peer Review
From a Scientific view point, these "Theories" should really be labelled as "hypothesis", as they are a personal opinion. They should only be deemed as "Theory" after a Peer review evaluation by qualified practitioners of the profession.

Science
"Hypotheses that have been consistently validated through additional observations or experimentation can eventually be advanced to the status of theory."

Ahhhhhh...............but,............... this is art, there are no rules.

[pingu]

"Valerie: In your book you talk about how fear paralyses. Fear-based learning and fear-based teaching. Can you tell us about that?
Kenny: Fear-based learning is not practising with good focus and being in a whole because of this fear that you’ll never become good. It drives you into a diluted state where you’re to yourself being toxic… Skimming all these things, hoping something works for you. That will be one of the main reasons why you won’t achieve your goal… Fear of practicing is practicing things in bulk and just skimming the surface because you’re afraid that you will die before you achieve your thing. Fear-base playing is playing and being afraid of how well you’re gonna play by questioning. There is absolutely no room for questioning during a performance. All the questioning should be done during practising. Fear-based teaching has to do with teachers that suppress something in others. Some people are not secured in their musicianship and hide behind the teacher. In that way not only the teacher doesn’t enjoy but the students are not well-served."


from VYGoes360 Kenny Werner

ta , yes fear is bad , thought so

[christianm77]

I agree with the title of the thread.

The correct amount and type of theory is the stuff that helps you play music. There are quite a few ways of understanding even simple things (take a look at the thread on minor subdominants for example.) Adopt that which makes sense to you.

You might find the best theory is no theory at all. For me, I find names for things useful, and I try to use the same names in common use that other players will understand.