Modes vs. Major scale

[GuyBoden]

I think CST was the attempt at a shortcut..... Didn't work for me, that's for sure.

I'd say more like a direct route than a shortcut. Again--for SOME things.

Mark, I think you'd agree, for the jazz you personally are into, thinking chord scales while practicing doesn't make much sense. There are other types of jazz where it makes a whole lot of sense.

I'd say, CST is a Longcut not a Shortcut, if you're playing older swing tunes in the older style.

[docbop]

I'd say, CST is a Longcut not a Shortcut, if you're playing older swing tunes in the older style.

To me CST is just one of the many things you need to spend some time on while the path to becoming an improviser. To me CST is only bad if you stop your investigation of all the other tools.

[yairhol]

Just to be on the same page as you guys: CST is.... Chord Scale Tones?
As I said previously, I come from a rock background and my jazz playing will probably be confined to the classical
standards. No wierd contemporary jazz tunes like Holdsworth who's music my ears aren't able to internalize.

So moving on, I improvised for an hour over Autumn Leaves using mostly the G major scale, Em pentatonic and some chromatics. At a certain point, by accident, I stumbled on a sound I immediately associated with jazz which I liked. So I tried analyzing what I was playing and it turned out to be a diminished scale. Now, I certainly can't play yet that scale on the guitar or understand its nature and applications (I left this scale for later studies after I master arpeggios, major scales and chord tones all over the guitar) but I do know some technical information about it.
Anyway, after understanding that the sound I liked was the D diminished scale (I think) over the D7 chord and progressing in half-whole tones, I opended up a book and looked that scale up. Interestingly, the diminished scale is very logical to play over a dominant chord as it outlines all of its chord tones plus some others which give it that jazzy sound. So I now have a new goal. Learn the diminished scale and be able to apply it over dominant chords.
Any insights you guys have on this scale? more applications of it?
Fingering-wise, it looks like 4 notes per string is the way to go...no?

[Stuart Elliott]

For a diminished scale over D7, you would want a R-h-w-h-w etc. diminished scale (D-eb--f-gb--ab-a--b-c--d).

This diminished scale also works over F7, Ab7, and B7.

The 4 notes per string fingering is useful. (see Matt Warnock's column here), but it is not the only useful fingering for the diminished scale. My favorite and the one I think it most useful is the last one Matt presents.

If you start with your first finger on f on the fourth string and slide up to gb, you will have a symmetrical pattern with the same fingering patterns (w-h) on strings 4 and 2 and a different pattern (h-w) on strings 3 and 1.

And, of course, one neat thing about the diminished scale is that it repeats every 3 frets.

[Reg]

CST was just a learning device to get somewhere... basically the same place we're all after. The problem most don't know what CST is and generally only get through the 1st few levels of applications and then develop negative opinions... come to think of it isn't that the guitarist approach for all things...

[docbop]

Just to be on the same page as you guys: CST is.... Chord Scale Tones?

Chord Scale Theory


Probably goes further back, but many talk about it popularized at Berklee back in 60's-70's. Gary Burton's free online class is all based on it.

[MarkRhodes]

I'd say more like a direct route than a shortcut. Again--for SOME things.

Mark, I think you'd agree, for the jazz you personally are into, thinking chord scales while practicing doesn't make much sense. There are other types of jazz where it makes a whole lot of sense.

When I hear "chord scale" I think, say, CM7, Dm7, Em7, FM7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5, with Em7 and Am7 being natural substitutes for CM7, with Bm7b5 being a combination of Dm7 and G7, and Dm7 being so close to FM7 that they can sub for one another, which means one can play FM7 for G7 (-Joe Pass was especially fond of doing that) because one can play Dm7 for G7 (-but going the other way, G7 for Dm7 won't always work though it often will). That sort of thing is the 'chordal scale' as I learned the term. (The major one. There are the melodic/jazz minor and harmonic minor ones too.) I think all that stuff is important to practice (esp triads and sevenths in various routines), and vital for playing in the jazz tradition. Thinking chordally, which includes the chordal scale, is very important to me.


I don't think playing over one chord for an extended period requires a different concept. Herb Ellis played well over static chords. Herb's "All the Shapes You Are" has about 30 "vamps" (as he calls them), lines over a single chord, most over a dozen measures in length, some over 20 measures. They're strong, straight-ahead jazz lines. Emily Remler does something similar in one of her Hot Licks videos (now DVD). Google "Emily Remler That's My Eb Minor" for a transcript of what she plays in the instructional vid. Good stuff. Good lines. I think jazz is about learning some lines, figuring out which ones suit you, learning some more, figuring out which ones suit you, recombining them, mixing the first part of this one with the last part of that one, and so on. And gradually, 'a style is born.' I think it's more about lines than anything else, and having a sense of how different lines may work together (or clash).

[mr. beaumont]

It's really not just about long stretches of one chord...

Lets say you see these chords...Eb13sus4, Abmaj7+5

Now, you're practicing...you could apply the arpeggio idea, and make sure you highlighted/altered any key tones...Or you might see the first chord is just a mixolydian scale, the second lydian augmented.

Just a different way of navigating, and one that can be very useful.

[Reg]

Similar progression which can be developed with melodic lines or chordal approach...

6 X 6 6 4 X Eb7 sus

4 X 5 5 5 X Ab ma7#5

4 4 4 4 6 X Db13sus

you can change the roots to each chord to create different chord progression... or different reference for developing melodic lines or if your stuck on arpeggios... create different chord tones and arpeggios etc... or play off the line cliches.

A somewhat important aspect of lines and harmony.... they don't need to always line up vertically, and generally aren't so vanilla when they don't.

Which or what is the I chord.

We could post examples of playing over the changes... create our own head to imply harmonic choices. Talking about playing is always enjoyable but actually being able to play what your talking about or trying something new that you haven't tried before or even understand is also cool...

[MarkRhodes]

It's really not just about long stretches of one chord...

Lets say you see these chords...Eb13sus4, Abmaj7+5

Now, you're practicing...you could apply the arpeggio idea, and make sure you highlighted/altered any key tones...Or you might see the first chord is just a mixolydian scale, the second lydian augmented.

Just a different way of navigating, and one that can be very useful.

O sure. No argument there. We're not having an argument at all. I was responding to your point that (roughly) chord scale thinking might not be important to what I do---my kinda jazz, pre-1959 stuff ;o)----and I was just saying that my sense of the 'chordal scale' is fundamental to just about everything I do. And I think sometimes in terms of scale---mainly when using, say, Ab Jazz Minor over a G7 that's resolving to some kind of C and a D Jazz Minor scale over a G7 going anywhere else, or standing still. (Emily Remler and John Scofield have both recommended that approach.)

It wouldn't help me to think of Eb13sus4 as a mixolydian scale but if that works for someone else, God bless 'em.

[Reg]

That works Mark, as will almost anything... but why not just think and hear G7alt.... that's what your saying your going to play or pull your lines from.

Ab melodic min going to C can be many other things...