Dude says - I play what I hear

[sgcim]

Excluding the Benson's and other who have amazing ears. I think over time of transcribing and what teacher have to me to do sing the lines and exercises people do start getting some skill to sing what they hear. From listening to many and big names many aren't singing note for note they are singing the shape of their line/target notes of their solo. I know for me when I do that it helps my phrasing.

Speaking of Benson, I loved the way Benson's lines sounded when he sang with them, so I copied some of them.
I was surprised to find they were corny little rock licks, which sounded like crap without him singing along with them.

[marcwv]

I contemplated the value of hearing everything before you play it...especially when it come to sight reading not only in improvisation.
My conclusion is : Anytime you have additional skills that can help you get the job done....good for you!
Becoming a well rounded musician will always be an advantage. So if you learn to hear everything you see on paper or aurally and be able to sing or play it , Great!
But here is as far as it goes! When symphony player opens up a new score that he hasn't seen before he may visually get an idea how it's going to sound , but if he is sight reading he is not singing, the reaction is what his eye see's is to his fingers!
Additionally in improvisation I have seen musicians with perfect pitch ....could play almost anything by ear but play like shit!
The guitar has taught me many a line which I didn't originate in my head, are they my lines? ....yes they are!
In the end all that counts is what comes out the other end.....if it's from your soul..your spirit ....from you !
My Christmas , Hanukah, Holliday whish is that we can all play better!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marc

[3625]

I wonder about this because it seems it would make one perpetually late. (If you hear it and THEN play it, you're not playing at the same point in relation to the harmony; further, you would need to be hearing the following line / phrase while playing the present one. That seems confusing.)

Take an extreme example, an 8-bar phrase. Well, to pre-hear it would take 8 bars! Not even Miles was keen on 8 bars of silence. On top of that, the 8-bar phrase you pre-heard, might not sound so hot when played over the next 8 bars of the tune. (It might sound fine if the second 8 had the same changes as the first 8, which happens in AABA tunes, but this could never work over an 8-bar bridge because you would start playing the phrase when the rest of the band was back on the A section! Further, if you hear what you play on the bridge before it starts, then you were hearing it over the tail end of the A section, where it would sound different...)

(The assumption here is that regardless of what you may hear in your head, you still hear what is going on outside of it. That is, the other musicians you are playing with.)

8 bars - nah! In reality there's all kinds of stuff going on in someone's head when they play so explaining it can be a bit confusing.

But to simplify:

1/ be able to play guitar in your head away from the instrument - hearing the notes clearly while visualising your fingers playing the notes on the fretboard. Literally playing guitar in your head - not some kind of dreamlike whistling trip.

2/ take that vibe and now physically sync it to your fingers

The mind is primary, and the fingers secondary (both are really important, but in that order).

After 20 years of playing ii V's, I can do it quite well over familiar changes for single line, but my ability to hear full chords is way more vague. Likewise, over unconventional changes I'd be struggling. Based off some Rosenwinkel clinics and things I've seen, I reckon he could hear full guitar harmony in his head no problem. Guys like Mahler and Schubert composed whole orchestral works at a desk with nothing but their minds, pen and paper - it's all relative.

[nick1994]

I'm going to say it's both necessary to hear things in your head but also know exactly what you do. It's about control.

[fumblefingers]

a lot of the guys mentioned here who "sing' when they play just sound like they're moaning. i find it very unappealing.

Benson is probably the biggest exception.

[fumblefingers]

We're in a studio the other day and a young hot shot player seems to have the other session guys in awe of his ability to sing while playing his lines. When asked about it he shrugged " I just play what I hear" and began showing off his ability. But I just couldn't buy it, so I asked if he could play what he heard someone else play. Again he just shrugged, so I picked up a guitar and played him a single blues chorus I'd recently transcribed from a Tina Brooks record. He didn't get it. So I just played him the first bar. He struggled, kinda like how most people (including myself) do when we're transcribing.

Now here's the thing, I know there are musical freaks out there, and I've known at least one, that have magical ears, and probably can play what they hear, whether it's in their head, or from somewhere else. However, that's quite a different level when compared to guys who have learned to sing what they know they can play. When guys say they can play what they hear, they usually are just "hearing" what they know, or just singing what they're playing. I'm just not as impressed as most people seem to be.

What do you guys think?

i think that i agree with you.

[gnatola]

We're in a studio the other day and a young hot shot player seems to have the other session guys in awe of his ability to sing while playing his lines. When asked about it he shrugged " I just play what I hear" and began showing off his ability. But I just couldn't buy it, so I asked if he could play what he heard someone else play. Again he just shrugged, so I picked up a guitar and played him a single blues chorus I'd recently transcribed from a Tina Brooks record. He didn't get it. So I just played him the first bar. He struggled, kinda like how most people (including myself) do when we're transcribing.

Now here's the thing, I know there are musical freaks out there, and I've known at least one, that have magical ears, and probably can play what they hear, whether it's in their head, or from somewhere else. However, that's quite a different level when compared to guys who have learned to sing what they know they can play. When guys say they can play what they hear, they usually are just "hearing" what they know, or just singing what they're playing. I'm just not as impressed as most people seem to be.

What do you guys think?

I started a thread on this very subject ~a year ago. Got lots of negative feedback. Prince, you actually chimed in.

If anyone can TRULY play what they hear in their head as the changes are flying by at rapid tempos, prove it. Post it.
I've seen several clips of Pizarelli scatting. The lines are the same in each one. It's practiced. Not taking anything away from his incredible talent. But, it's practiced.

You all think Charlie Parker played what he was hearing at 300 BPM? Transcribe his solos. The same motifs occur a million times.

Somebody prove it. Play over changes you are hearing for the first time and prove you can play what you hear in your head.

sorry for being so contentious, but I think it's OK to call "bulls--t." These heroes of ours are not superhuman.

[nick1994]

Now here's the thing, I know there are musical freaks out there, and I've known at least one, that have magical ears, and probably can play what they hear, whether it's in their head, or from somewhere else. However, that's quite a different level when compared to guys who have learned to sing what they know they can play. When guys say they can play what they hear, they usually are just "hearing" what they know, or just singing what they're playing. I'm just not as impressed as most people seem to be.

What do you guys think?

Maybe if guys sing over changes without playing at the same time, that would prove that they are hearing something as opposed to singing what they are playing.

[Stevebol]

I started a thread on this very subject ~a year ago. Got lots of negative feedback. Prince, you actually chimed in.

If anyone can TRULY play what they hear in their head as the changes are flying by at rapid tempos, prove it. Post it.
I've seen several clips of Pizarelli scatting. The lines are the same in each one. It's practiced. Not taking anything away from his incredible talent. But, it's practiced.

You all think Charlie Parker played what he was hearing at 300 BPM? Transcribe his solos. The same motifs occur a million times.

Somebody prove it. Play over changes you are hearing for the first time and prove you can play what you hear in your head.

sorry for being so contentious, but I think it's OK to call "bulls--t." These heroes of ours are not superhuman.

That may be true but this is jazz.

[Stevebol]

I can't play what's in my head so I play what's in my feet. It's better than nothing.

[3625]

Maybe if guys sing over changes without playing at the same time, that would prove that they are hearing something as opposed to singing what they are playing.

Here's about as concrete an example of this as you could possibly get:

He breaks down everything we're discussing here over 'Autumn Leaves' from 19:30 onwards. In particular check out what he does at 21:30 - there it is right there. I'd say that's definitive proof.

Now sure as f*** I can't compare my playing to Oberg's level - but that said I can play over ii V's. Here's a short clip of me playing over the changes to 'Solar' - the whole song is pretty much ii V's. The lines are heard and internalised in my mind - like Oberg demonstrated in the above clip.

But sorry, I won't be recording my singing... it's pretty bad... ain't gonna happen...

[gnatola]

Like most people I'm hearing bits I've drilled, and re-arrange those bits on the fly, so every note is intentional - there are no surprises (for better or for worse)... but because I use many rapid, heavily chromatic ideas, I can honestly say that these ideas are more readily expressed by playing them rather than singing them. So trying to simultaneously sing them slows me down, but not in a good way, besides my vocal range is very limited...

On the subject of just purely "hearing" or even singing things, to me that's a separate concept I sometimes indulge, without the instrument in my hands. Even here I am smashing together tidbits of things I have heard, so sometimes it might be Jackie Mclean meets Rollins mixed up with some Oliver Nelson or Eric Dolphy. It sounds amazing in my head, less so with my voice, but there remains a vast chasm between hearing that shit in real time, and being able to express it with the fingers!

So yeah, with me at least, these are 2 entirely different ways of "hearing"- hearing what I know with the guitar in hand, and hearing what I don't without...

Singing is different. There is no intermediate interface between the brain and the voice. With a guitar you have to hear a line, then find it on the instrument.

Again, sorry. I feel strongly about this.

[gnatola]

('cause of you don't hear it in your head, you can't play it!)[/QUOTE]

Yes, you can.

You guys are funny. You just quote things you've read the so-called masters have said and regurgitate it. Think for yourself.

Read Zen Guitar. Like everything else, take from it what works for you.

[gnatola]

That may be true but this is jazz.

What?????

[gnatola]

"danny, i'm going to give you a little advice. There's a force in the universe that makes things happen; all you have to do is get in touch with it. Stop thinking...let things happen and be the ball."
-chevy chase in "caddyshack"

that's a classic comedy line, but seriously, isn't it a little like this for improvisers? There really isn't enough time to hear it--not all of it--before you play it. Maybe we can start to hear it, but then, in our best moments, we have to almost actually...be the music?

exactly!!!!!

[fep]

If you can play what you hear then you should be able to transcribe without touching your instrument. And you'd be able to do it really fast, just one listen for each phrase. (With no reference, even if you don't have perfect pitch, you might get the key wrong, but relatively you'd be correct). If you can't do that then you are just fooling yourself, you're not playing what you hear, you're playing what you know.

(If you don't know notation then you should be able to do it with tab.)

I'd bet most that say they can "play what they hear" can't really do it, at least under my definition.

I have met some that can though.

[3625]

If you can play what you hear then you should be able to transcribe without touching your instrument. And you'd be able to do it really fast, just one listen for each phrase. If you can't do that then you are just fooling yourself, you're not playing what you hear, you're playing what you know.

(If you don't know notation then you should be able to do it with tab.)

I'd bet most that say they can "play what they hear" can't really do it, at least under my definition.

I have met some that can though.

As far as what I'm describing for myself - it's playing what you know and more importantly knowing what you play. Then when improvising you rearrange what you already know on the fly and create new lines/patterns out of that.

Can I hear a Billy Bean solo off a recording and write it down without a guitar? No way. That's a very different concept to what I've been referring to.

It's more that if you haven't internalised your playing vocabulary - your playing over changes will be a bit hit and miss. You might get lucky and play a cool phrase, but just as quickly get lost or trip yourself up. Internalising your own vocab insures that you stay ahead of the curve, which over bop changes in particular is where you need to be.

[nick1994]

If you can play what you hear then you should be able to transcribe without touching your instrument. And you'd be able to do it really fast, just one listen for each phrase. (With no reference, even if you don't have perfect pitch, you might get the key wrong, but relatively you'd be correct). If you can't do that then you are just fooling yourself, you're not playing what you hear, you're playing what you know.

(If you don't know notation then you should be able to do it with tab.)

I'd bet most that say they can "play what they hear" can't really do it, at least under my definition.

I have met some that can though.

That's a pretty interesting idea, Fep. Usually when I transcribe something away from my instrument, I end up visualising the fretboard anyway.

[mr. beaumont]

If you can play what you hear then you should be able to transcribe without touching your instrument. And you'd be able to do it really fast, just one listen for each phrase. (With no reference, even if you don't have perfect pitch, you might get the key wrong, but relatively you'd be correct). If you can't do that then you are just fooling yourself, you're not playing what you hear, you're playing what you know.

(If you don't know notation then you should be able to do it with tab.)

I'd bet most that say they can "play what they hear" can't really do it, at least under my definition.

I have met some that can though.

i'd have to disagree, Frank. We can "listen" tto something but not "hear" all of it.

When someone says they play what they hear, they mean in their own head. That's hearing. Everything else is listening.

[princeplanet]

Here's about as concrete an example of this as you could possibly get:

He breaks down everything we're discussing here over 'Autumn Leaves' from 19:30 onwards. In particular check out what he does at 21:30 - there it is right there. I'd say that's definitive proof.

Now sure as f*** I can't compare my playing to Oberg's level - but that said I can play over ii V's. Here's a short clip of me playing over the changes to 'Solar' - the whole song is pretty much ii V's. The lines are heard and internalised in my mind - like Oberg demonstrated in the above clip.

But sorry, I won't be recording my singing... it's pretty bad... ain't gonna happen...

Yes, Oberg is indeed impressive (then again, that seems to be his whole schtick)- I'm actually even more impressed that he can sing as fast as he does! But even here, with a benchmark example of this, we should remember that he is singing what he knows he can play (which is plenty in this case). I wonder if he can sing something he can't play?

At any rate, for every "real deal" there seems to be a thousand pretenders who like to give the impression they have this ability to play whatever is in their head. It's kinda like faking you have perfect pitch, it's a cheap trick designed to impress or intimidate.

And yes I know that one day I'll try to "out" some faker only to make me look stupid for having doubted an ability that really exists! But that's OK, a little humiliation now and then is a small price to pay for us all to keep our music from being cheapened by these "parlour" tricksters!

[3625]

Yes, Oberg is indeed impressive (then again, that seems to be his whole schtick)- I'm actually even more impressed that he can sing as fast as he does! But even here, with a benchmark example of this, we should remember that he is singing what he knows he can play (which is plenty in this case). I wonder if he can sing something he can't play?

At any rate, for every "real deal" there seems to be a thousand pretenders who like to give the impression they have this ability to play whatever is in their head. It's kinda like faking you have perfect pitch, it's a cheap trick designed to impress or intimidate.

And yes I know that one day I'll try to "out" some faker only to make me look stupid for having doubted an ability that really exists! But that's OK, a little humiliation now and then is a small price to pay for us all to keep our music from being cheapened by these "parlour" tricksters!

PP - you mean this is something you run into a bit - guys saying they can play whatever they hear? This more of a rock scene you dealing with in this case? I know you're a working engineer. Perhaps naively they think that's true about themselves - especially if the only music they listen to is relatively uncomplicated, and they fairly quickly work things out by ear. Perhaps it's more innocent than anything. I've taught a bunch of rock guitarists, and have sometimes run across that vibe before.

[mr. beaumont]

Lol. I can play what I hear. As long as the tune's diatonic. And one minor pentatonic scale fits the whole thing. And that scale is E minor pentatonic.

[princeplanet]

PP - you mean this is something you run into a bit - guys saying they can play whatever they hear? This more of a rock scene you dealing with in this case? I know you're a working engineer. Perhaps naively they think that's true about themselves - especially if the only music they listen to is relatively uncomplicated, and they fairly quickly work things out by ear. Perhaps it's more innocent than anything. I've taught a bunch of rock guitarists, and have sometimes run across that vibe before.

Hehe, nah, the rock players don't seem to hear anything, they just "feel it, man" ...
Was referring to a Jazz session, but young guys, (who probably watch too many youtube Masterclasses)....

[GuyBoden]

I think some players can definitely play what they hear, some a little, some a lot.

I was once at a workshop and a phone's ring tone rang in the audience, the piano player instantly played the phone's ring tone tune back at the audience.

At a Anthony Wilson workshop I attended, a friend sang a complex bebop line and the Anthony Wilson played it straight back.

[Reg]

When you play all the time... you can hear what your playing. When you compose/arrange all the time... you can hear the music on the paper.

When I was a kid in collage, I was paid to transcribe cuban big band charts. Stuck in front of a reel to reel with music paper and pencils. early 70's. Learned how to hear what I was hearing, organizing what I was hearing. Eventually I came up with a system to organize what i was hearing... break the whole into parts etc...

I can't hear what I don't know or understand, or at least I can't process the sound and label.

I can't come close to singing as fast as I can Play, and usually do. Why would I want to, I'm playing my guitar. I have no problem hearing harmony etc... I can read scores yada yada. And I'm no one and have average talent.

A few weeks ago I was hired to play on a latin/jazz project. Showed up at studio, read through the charts, sight reading...
the tunes were burin, four horns, 3 percussion, smokin rhythm section... all pros. One or two takes...recorded 14 or 15 tunes. No standards, very hip tunes.

It's not magic or super human abilities, you simple need to understand what your doing...and perform. I make mistakes, but I make mistakes when I rehearse something also, maybe more because memorization comes into play.

I never get the BS about thinking and feeling. Is there a problem with thinking while your feeling or feeling what your thinking. Are there like switches or something, or do you just block things out... wait... is there some inner being that's just waiting to come out, maybe put everything together just the way you might want it...