Time: playing at the beginning, middle, or end of the beat?

[eh6794]

Thats a cool video. Would a good guitarist be able to make the metronome click disappear every time he tried, or is that nearly impossible?

[pkirk]

This is an awesome thread. Can someone clarify for me?

When we talk about on, before and after the beat, are we talking about structured rhythms a 16th, 32nd and or triplets around the beats that can be written down, or is it something thats less structured and difficult to write down?

I recommend the Iyer thesis. The short answer is that it is not a "denotable" thing, just like swing isn't, it really is an artistic choice.

There was once a thread on a similar topic with links to youtube videos. As usual, the answer lies in the music itself, not the analysis: check out Dexter gordon who used to really play behind the beat. I think the example of ahead of the beat was Mark Elf.

[edh]

Thats a cool video. Would a good guitarist be able to make the metronome click disappear every time he tried, or is that nearly impossible?

Yes...try it.

[Vladan]

For the matter, I did not get the clip. What I saw was a bearded man, repeatedly saying 2 sentences about relaxation, while randomly whacking rhythm stick, occasionally hitting with the beat produced by a PC in the background.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I recommend the Iyer thesis. The short answer is that it is not a "denotable" thing, just like swing isn't, it really is an artistic choice.

I don't really disagree with what you're getting at there at all, but I think that's a whole other level of sophistication. Most guitarists that I hear aren't really down with playing on all the fundamental subdivisions of the beat at a much more basis level. I just think, as a whole, we are behind the curve somewhat, because we don't study it in school like horn players typically do.

Take swing itself: the eighth note triplet basis for it is just the beginning for approximating a true swing feel, but the underlying framework of triplets is still there. Those triplets aren't "even" or static in relation to time (it can swing harder etc) but that subdivision is still there.

Playing after the beat really begins with being able to hear the oft-neglected eighth note triplet that fits between the other two (in time). I don't think a lot of us even hear that one. when we hear a bluesy player working that, we think it just sounds kind of "loose".

Notation is always a ham-fisted approximation of what the player's really doing, but you can absolutely notate that "after the beat" feel if you know what's going on with the triplets, (again, at a kind of basic rhythmic level).

My ears are somewhat ahead of my skills in this regard, but I hear it in a lot in YouTube videos of players trying to emulate pro's rhythmic sophistication, and just completely misinterpreting it as playing "out of time" (which is not what their hero was doing).

I just think that when more advanced players say that "feel" can't be notated (which is absolutely true), the less skilled (like myself) often misunderstand THAT as an explanation for everything that they CAN'T HEAR in relationship to time and the underlying rhythmic framework at much more basic levels.

[richb2]

richb2
I love Bossa Nova! I thought I had it right at first, but a teacher (in L.A.) corrected me on my right hand technique. It is a very specific right hand style. I think you are right-it feels like you should push the beat-I try to push the bass lines a bit…it has to do with the "clave", percussion, Brazilian groove. I was also told that Brazilian guitarists play in the low end of the guitar-they play the low bass parts of the chords…What Bossa tunes do you know? This music makes me feel good while playing it-the Samba tunes are much faster-I love Antonio Carlos Jobim! He wrote the most beautiful melodies…Some tunes my husband Bob and I play as a duo-
Desifinado, Ipanema, One Note Samba, Wave, Corcovado, Insensitez (How Insensitive)…Agua De Beber.
Like I said-I love Bossa!
Thank you for your post-
Michelle

I play in a quartet and we play the same tunes you do! Right now we are working on playing without reading so we have concentrated on just memorizing Agua de Beber, How Insensitive, Desfinado, Black Orpheus, Girl From Ipanema. I actually have been trying to learn to solo without a pick also, and growing my nails. We have a bass, a conga, and a tenor sax, besides me. What we were doing before we decided to scale back our song list (after reading Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery) was playing other non bossa jazz tunes as bossa. For example we were doing my funny valentine, summertime, autumn leaves, Antonio's Song etc all in bossa.

I initially had an issue with my right hand too that my teacher corrected.

I actually listen to much more modern bossa nova. Have you ever heard of Luciana Souza? If not check her out. Luciana Souza . Her album New Bossa Nova is one of my all time favorites. I also like Michael Franks a lot. Both are bossa nova.

[pkirk]

Take swing itself: the eighth note triplet basis for it is just the beginning for approximating a true swing feel, but the underlying framework of triplets is still there. Those triplets aren't "even" or static in relation to time (it can swing harder etc) but that subdivision is still there.

Playing after the beat really begins with being able to hear the oft-neglected eighth note triplet that fits between the other two (in time). I don't think a lot of us even hear that one. when we hear a bluesy player working that, we think it just sounds kind of "loose".
.

One exercise concerning this that I learned in a lesson from Quentin Angus is this: take the usual ride cymbal pattern: "spang,spang-a-lang.."
which you can think of "* . . * . * * . . * . *" (in triplets where * means hit and . means rest) i.e. ( 1 . . 2 . let 3 . . 4 . let) and practice it with a metronome *in all displacements by a triple amount.* e.g.
I've written the undisplaced one, now move everything one triplet late with respect to the beat and practice that against a metronome, to get

"* * . . * . * * . . * ." ie (1 po . . po . 3 po . .po .)

the displace 2 triplets, etc (. po let . . let . po let . . let)

It's really hard to do this and not let your perception shift the beat rather than the metronome.

I think this is partly what the book by ari hoeing is about.

[Vladan]

Must say, in swung 1/8ths above is much easier than in real 3plets.

[dingusmingus]

One exercise concerning this that I learned in a lesson from Quentin Angus is this: take the usual ride cymbal pattern: "spang,spang-a-lang.."
which you can think of "* . . * . * * . . * . *" (in triplets where * means hit and . means rest) i.e. ( 1 . . 2 . let 3 . . 4 . let) and practice it with a metronome *in all displacements by a triple amount.* e.g.
I've written the undisplaced one, now move everything one triplet late with respect to the beat and practice that against a metronome, to get

"* * . . * . * * . . * ." ie (1 po . . po . 3 po . .po .)

the displace 2 triplets, etc (. po let . . let . po let . . let)

It's really hard to do this and not let your perception shift the beat rather than the metronome.

I think this is partly what the book by ari hoeing is about.

Interesting. I've been doing something similar lately, trying to comp a familiar song, with the metronome on quarter notes, but hearing the click as the third part of the triplet (the "let" in your terminology, I guess). It's hard, especially when the tempo picks up. Once I get that down, I'll try it with the click as the middle part of the triplet (the "po"). And, all sixteenths for straight rhythms.

Plenty to work on!

[Michelle]

matt.guitarteacher

I understand what you are saying in your above post…I think in my case, I didn't go to "Boston Berkeley School of Jazz" or GIT (Guitar Institute of Technology) or MI (Musician's Institute)-all places I could have studied at ,while growing up in Los Angeles! I think Dick Grove's just existed then…but I didn't go. I was gigging alot, and went to Japan in the early 80's. In Northern Calif there is the Stanford Jazz Institute…I just mostly learned myself, off of records, and out of books, and sometimes from a teacher. Today, these schools offer intense programs, where the kids eat, sleep, and breathe music classes, until they graduate the program. I didn't have any direction when I started playing at 13 yrs old-I just kept learning from people, and over the years progressed on up to jazz. I love being a "singer-songwriter" and recording, gigging, and writing, but I totally regret now, not going to one of these intense programs. In just talking about rhythm and timing on this thread, I see now how much more there is to playing with really good rhythm-even if you think you have good rhythm! Husband Bob and I have stepped up our search for a good jazz guitar teacher in our area. I like good technique on any instrument, but I want the bass player and drummer to say "she can really swing!" Bob is a good sight reader, so I am going to have him show me the rhythm examples you guys have offered-I appreciate all the responses so much!
Michelle

[richb2]

Well, I know you said that you missed the chance to go to GIT. It sounds like you are in LA still? Here your chance to go to GIT (almost): Les Wise still teaches and I think he is still in LA. If you private message me I can give you his email.

[Michelle]

richb2
Thanks for your posts! First-I read your entire blog about your trip to Spain…wow! That must have been interesting-
Did you get what you wanted out of the Flamenco guitar class? Where were all the gypsies? Do they live in a different area? Isn't Flamenco tied in closely with the "Gypsy Jazz" guitar style/technique? Sounds like a dumb question, I know, as husband Bob and I have jumped into Gypsy Jazz, bought our Gypsy Jazz guitars (made in France), and have been working on this totally different right and left hand style, added 7 Gypsy Jazz tunes to our set, all without knowing alot about "Flamenco!" Shame on us! Talk about rhythm-these guys play so fast, their fingers are a blur! This isn't the thread to talk about it, but if you want-go to the Forum Front Page, click on "other styles", go down to "Gypsy Jazz", and check out the thread started by "jaco". You might like watching/hearing some of these guys! I recommended some good books there, check it out! That's cool you are in a quartet-and yes, Bob and I were told to get our nose out of the music stand and memorize our songs! It's true, on the songs I know by heart, I can just relax and play-reading even a "cheat sheet" can make you sound stiffer. We need to learn "Black Orpheus"- of course! One of the main Bossa tunes. Is your bass upright or electric? I came up during the "Folk" scene in L.A.-played The Troubador, and lots of clubs back then-and I still use a thumb pick! I have never been able to shake it-it's so much a part of my right hand picking technique now…a no-no according to jazz players, but I have played alot solo and duo, and I like the way it brings out the bass. On a finger style jazz version of "Georgia", it emphasizes the walking bass lines. I probably should drop it, but I CAN'T! ha! Old habits die hard…I use a flat pick on all the rest…If you are growing out your nails, don't be afraid to slap on some clear "top coat", on top and underneath your picking nails. Not a "girly" thing-but a "guitar" thing. That helps your nails to not break. You probably already know this…I checked out Luciana Souza. Very nice! Back to this thread-How's your rhythm? Ha! Bob and I are now in the Santa Cruz Mountains, not L.A. anymore. Les Wise is cool!
Did you go to GIT? Thanks! Michelle