Getting the swing feel

[lukeguitar]

Started listening to jazz only some few years back ....... Been working on my improvisation but no matter what i play it don't sound jazzy at all . Lol ............. Would so appreciate if anyone could kindly suggest a good SWING jazz tune to transcribe/learn that would help me with some swing jazz guitar improvisation . Thank You

[mr. beaumont]

Charlie Christian...anything. It all starts there.

[lukeguitar]

Thank you very much Mr. Beaumont So want to play jazz but don't know where to start . Never transcribed any tune before .... This is the first time ill be learning a tune note for note .

[docbop]

A big part of learning Jazz is as teachers put it "serious listening" not just playing the records, but listening and studying the rhythms, the chords, the lines, how the band members are playing off each other. Lots and lots of listening to get the swing feel in your gut.

[jasonc]

One thing I would suggest to get the swing feel is to practice scales using triplets. Once you really have that in your ear then omit the second note of the triplet. That is what swung eighths really are.

[lukeguitar]

Thank you Docbop and Jasonc for your replies .Means a lot

[Eremitae]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time posting on an answer

Check out Emily Remlers Dvd's (can be found on youtube).

She has this great way of using a metronome - basically, instead of setting it to count all beats pr. measure, use it in "half" time. (i.e. if you're practicing at 90, set the metronome on 45) and then use the metronome to count the 2 and 4 beats. This forces you to have a feel for 1 and 3 - great way of developing a good tempo-feel.

If your practicing bossa, set the metronome to 1 and 3.

/E

[lukeguitar]

Thanks much Eremitae ..... The videos really helped Now im looking for a nice tune with lots of single note swing feel soloing to get started

[docbop]

Below are a couple YouTube to check out. First is from the Something Else album by Cannonball Adderley classic album and this track of Autumn Leave is a laid back swing and is a solo that many improv teachers have students start with transcribing.

Cannonball Adderley Autumn Leaves

Next is Wes Montgomery's album Smokin' At the Half Note. This is the album that as a kid Pat Metheny transcribed and memorized entire album. Get line up on the album too with Jimmy Cobb on drums one of the swinging-est drummers who still out there gigging.

Wes Montgomery No Blues

Listen to early Kenny Burrell, George Benson, Wes Montgomery, and Grant Green albums for guitar, but don't ignore horn players early Miles Davis and John Coltrane swing like crazy. Also check out organist Jimmy Smith he had Kenny Burrell and Wes Montgomery on his early albums get stuff.

This where Youtube can be a good teacher a lot of classic Jazz to listen and study.

[inwalkedbud]

One thing I would suggest to get the swing feel is to practice scales using triplets. Once you really have that in your ear then omit the second note of the triplet. That is what swung eighths really are.

youre getting into shady territory here. Rhythmic swing is relative to style and tempo. George Benson plays a rhythmically straight swing but it swings nonetheless. Try this...

Practice scales or lines or patterns or whatever with rhythmically straight 8th notes. Slur into all the downbeats where fingering allows. Then do the same thing but pick every note and accent the upbeats hard. Next is time feel (laying back or pushing the best) and actual rhythm. Just as an exercise try playing triplet feel swing eighth notes over Cherokee at 280. It will be a very short exercise. If you can do the slurs and then you can do the accents then you're gold. When you're working on rhythmic swing the best way is to cop lines and play along because swing is rarely definable in a notation oriented way.

[lukeguitar]

Thank you for taking out the time to reply ........ Feels good to know that there are people who really wants to help. Thanks again docbop . Will definitely transcribe both the tunes Thank you inwalkedbud ........ Wow im gonna get busy the next few weeks

[jasonc]

youre getting into shady territory here. Rhythmic swing is relative to style and tempo. George Benson plays a rhythmically straight swing but it swings nonetheless. Try this...

Practice scales or lines or patterns or whatever with rhythmically straight 8th notes. Slur into all the downbeats where fingering allows. Then do the same thing but pick every note and accent the upbeats hard. Next is time feel (laying back or pushing the best) and actual rhythm. Just as an exercise try playing triplet feel swing eighth notes over Cherokee at 280. It will be a very short exercise. If you can do the slurs and then you can do the accents then you're gold. When you're working on rhythmic swing the best way is to cop lines and play along because swing is rarely definable in a notation oriented way.

I'd hardly call it shady. The triplet feel is how Metheny and Barry Harris say it should be. But yes, the faster you play the straighter it all gets. I also agree that lifting stuff off of records is really the best way to get it together.

[inwalkedbud]

I know a lot of important people use that as a reference point for students but none of them really use it that frequently themselves. I mean... if it straightens out the faster it gets then what's the tempo where it works? 80bpm? 180bpm? If it straightens out the faster that it gets does that mean that the first note takes up 66.6667% of the beat at 80bpm and 65% of the beat at 81bpm or does it take longer to start straightening out? Does it get to the point where it's a dotted quarter and sixteenth if you slow down? Why does Cannonball Adderly swing when he plays almost exclusively double time licks for a particular solo? I think the way to really nail the swing thing is to figure out what makes something swing across all tempos and get that. And the transcribing and playing along.

Again ... I do know that it's a very popular teaching reference point and you can probably find examples of very prominent people using it. It's really popular from the Jazz Ed movement in the 70s and 80s but there are some big holes in it.

[pkirk]

A piece of advice concerning "getting" swing that I once heard was: get 10 Count Basie albums, a good pair of headphones, and two six packs of beer. Listen/drink until you've heard them all and the beer is gone.

[inwalkedbud]

That's good advice....

[docbop]

A piece of advice concerning "getting" swing that I once heard was: get 10 Count Basie albums, a good pair of headphones, and two six packs of beer. Listen/drink until you've heard them all and the beer is gone.

Repeat until you can Swing or need AA.

[lukeguitar]

Thank you again everyone

[rodite135]

So maybe this will sound weird but are you trying to play ideas based on scales or appergios? Are you striking every other note or every note? Do you listen to jazz guitarist? You can't start your jazz studies by listening to Kurt Rosenwinkle. Are you playing with effects? Getting a jazz sound has to start with no effects. Once you get the articulation then you can effects. Getting a jazz sound is all about getting the basics right. You might mean something else and that could be about what your actually playing. You won't sound like Peter Bernstein or Lage Lund without knowing bebop and that will require some study.

[Jonathan0996]

I think solos by bebop trumpeters from the '40s and 50s are great fodder for transcription. People like Clifford Brown, Fats Navarro and Lee Morgan can teach you a lot. Listen to their recordings, pick a not too busy solo you like on a tune with not too many chord changes and get to work.

I suggest trumpet solos because saxophonists usually play too fast for someone just getting started, and guitarists and pianists often confuse things by throwing in chords. What you want are straight, classic bebop lines. If you don't already have a program like Transcribe to slow down the music, I suggest you get that too.

These guys can teach you the real vocabulary of jazz. You'll pick up some licks, but more importantly you'll start to learn the "language" of jazz. If you want to learn to sound jazzy, the beboppers hold all the secrets. Good luck and enjoy the ride.

[Reg]

Hey lukeguitar... check out any of my vids... I can swing like a mother...

Swing is not a technique, accents or slurring... those are teaching tools to try and help you become aware and develop what swing is... which is a feel.

I'm from school of triplet mechanical breakdown of swing, but as mentioned, it's not a constant or steady feel. Western swing or what you develop from technique of accents and slurring... somewhat like what collage and amateur musicians have learned from school is very straight... it don't mean a thing cause it don't got that swing.

I didn't say bad... just straight, vanilla version. What generally happens is there are rhythmic targets, (phrasing), and you adjust swing feel to set up the targets. It doesn't breakdown, (subdivide), evenly... that's where the feel thing needs to come in.

If you want technique to help develop the feel... work on bluesy 12/8 feels and comp through jazz tunes. Eventually tempo won't get in the way. Don't practice just slow, practice at med and up tempos. If you can't hang at faster tempos... just work on shorter sections of chords. Try and lock into a feel. You don't need to play that many attacks, just the feel.

If your having problems... give me some examples or tunes and I'll try and put up some vid examples.

[lukeguitar]

Thank you Rodite135 , Jonathan0996 and Reg ............. Ill be taking all of your advices . Its helping me a lot

[add4]

i think an important point is: do you know what to play?

When i started to want to play jazz i needed some time to realize that the notes 'sound' different if they are played on the beat or on the upbeat.

It's also very hard impossible to relax and have a good swing feel if you don't know clearly what you are playing and are going to play, and if you are away from your comfort zone on the technical side (learning to play at the speed of jazz requires years of dedicated playing).

i would make sure that i have the required basis before transcribing or the real objective of it : to understand the principles of the music and have it sunk into your memory, will be much harder to attain. Also transcribing is much much easier if you know your basics.

So, do you know your arpeggios, your scales, are you able to play them everywhere on the neck at decent speed, on all tonalities, using eight notes, triplets, sixteenth notes, etc ...

If you practice all that with a metronome you will start hearing some patterns and known bits to the jazz language that you like. you will also spend hundreds of hours working all that with a metronome (on 2 and 4) and the swing placement will eventually not be an issue at that time.

IF you really want to transcribe, i'd suggest try to stick to one or two licks and get them REALLY well before moving to the other parts of the song .. transcribing a whole solo can be long and tedious and get frustrating when you realise that you can't use that as easily as you thought you would on your own solos.

also play with the placement, play on lick that you master really straight, dead on the beat and upbeats, then experiment with moving the notes on the upbeat backwards until you find a good swing feel that you like.

just some ideas, hope that helps.

Peace,
arnaud

[lukeguitar]

Thank you so much add4 ........... I never use metronome during practice thinking that the constant 'click' sound might cause a problem when i play with a band ................... I will from now on though

[docbop]

Thank you so much add4 ........... I never use metronome during practice thinking that the constant 'click' sound might cause a problem when i play with a band ................... I will from now on though

Working with a metronome its good in the beginning to just clap along with it. Remember if you hear the metronome your out of time. Your clap should make the metronome sound disappear.

Once your good at locking in with the metronome set it to on click on 2 and 4. There are some videos on Youtube that talk about how to count so the metronome is clicking on 2 and 4.

[lukeguitar]

Thank you again docbop