This Pat Metheny Lesson on improvisation is sticking in my craw

[dingusmingus]

Back on track a bit, wow what a great lesson! Metheny gets into so much useful stuff in just this one lesson. I heard this a year ago or so, but it means a lot more to me now that I've got a little foundation for it.

[Flyin' Brian]

Finally had a chance to listen to the whole thing...do people really think Pat was harsh? Geez, I owe my students an apology if so...


Man, there's some awesome nuggets in there...I could listen to Pat talk about music all day.

Jeff if you haven't already done so, check out Pat's podcast series. I enjoy listening to his interviews as much s listening to his music.

As far as Metheny not playing in the "traditional" jazz language, that's intentional. Pat is always looking ahead, never back. He wants to sound lie himself...mission accomplished. I recently read an interview where he said that he had played a gig with the Unity Band in Phoenix and thought that it was the best he had EVER played. When you think of 200+ gigs a year for 40 years, that's a LOT of playing.

But then he said that what happened in Phoenix no longer mattered, because tomorrow he had a gig in Sacramento and it was essentially a continuation of the quest. Jim Hall referred to Pat's work ethic as "ferocious". One can believe it. This is one of my favorite quotes from him...

"You know... the frustrating thing is every now and then you actually do get it right. It might be every 4th night or every 10th night or every six months or once a year but every now and then you do it. And that makes it worse almost because it's like you KNOW you can do it, you KNOW that you're not crazy. It's there. There is a truth there that can be found. And I think each year that you play you become more consistent or you get closer to that truth that you establish in your mind. But as you get closer to it, it also moves at the same rate higher away from where you are."

And then there's the quote in my signature.

[henryrobinett]

Hey man, it's not like I haven't heard Grant Green! I have a few of his albums and before that vinyl. I'm just not a particular fan. I don't care if God herself was a fan. But thanks. Nice track.

But if you recall, I seriously suck.

[eh6794]

I like how he talks about grammar, then just destroys the next sentence. Lol

Id have absolutely NO problem hearing the truth from any master, regardless of whether its music, business, physics etc

I got a lesson from a swing blues guy back in the 90s. It hurt my ego, but I learned from it

[M-ster]

Jeff if you haven't already done so, check out Pat's podcast series. I enjoy listening to his interviews as much s listening to his music ...

Links or directions to the podcast series, please? Thanks!

[acoustictones]

I just had a listen to the original post or video, and I don't feel that he's harsh in the least. I loved what he had to say and thought his approach was very helpful and non-intimidating. Just my opinion.

[Flyin' Brian]

Links or directions to the podcast series, please? Thanks!

https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/abo...129228134?mt=2

http://feeds.feedburner.com/patmetheny

[fep]

I have a Tascam DR 05 voice recorder that I use for song writing when the inspiration strikes. For the cost and size, this thing is quite remarkable in terms of the two small condenser mics in a fixed XY pattern. The fidelity is darn good. No overdubbing with this model but that's not its main purpose for me. Anyway, the other day I was improvising over Andrea Bocelli's performance of Estate with Chris Botti, and I tried recording on the kitchen table with the mic positioned between my MacBook and my guitar. The recording sounded excellent. So if I can just decipher how to get files up on the site the Wizard uses for file sharing, Box.com, I can transfer the improv up on Box.com from my Tascam recorder.

Jay

Box.com has an mp3 player or you can store it on Box.com as a wave file and folks can download the file to their computer and then play it.

Either way, 1) you take the Tascam adapter and plug it into a usb drive on your computer, I think you may have to change the settings on the Tascam first, not sure, read the manual. 2) From Box.com you select 'upload' navigate to the Tascam which behaves just like a usb thumbdrive and upload the file. 3) You find the share button in Box.com and copy that link and paste it into a thread on this site.

If you want to use the mp3 player on Box.com you can either 1) upload the wave file and use software on your computer to convert to an mp3 (not sure if your computer has the software) or 2) you can switch the Tascam to record as an mp3 and record a new take (maybe you already have it set that way and it's already an mp3).

Tascam make really nice recordings, I have one that's maybe 5 years old, the DR-07. I think the DR-05 is basically the same but a newer model.

[targuit]

Thanks for the review of functions on Box.com, Frank! You know, I've had the Tascam for almost six months or more, and I'm just getting the hang of the functions. That is what I realized - I can upload the files onto the PC. With iTunes I can convert to mp3 or other file type. I just have not spent the time yet on the thick little booklet with the impossibly small print or the videos on Box.com. I get tired of learning to do these things - learning curves with the tech. I need a personal live-in tech assistant.

I find that the DR 05 is a nice sounding portable recorder with excellent fidelity.

Jay

[M-ster]

https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/abo...129228134?mt=2

About The Music

Thanks, Brian - Checking them out, now.

[Cunamara]

Those podcasts are great. Pat is very articulate when talking about music and his process.

[Archie]

I started learning music theory at the age of 26 until then I was totally self taught. My first band leader threw me in a 5 piece and gave me a chart, that I couldn't read a single chord off.

I sat there for a while and it was my turn to solo. I'd never soled in my life and didn't have clue what to do. I didn't even know a scale at this point. Anyway, I heard the teacher telling a girl sax player in the group, how bad I was and how he wished I wasn't here (this whilst I was trying to take my first solo ever, in a room of strangers and lets be honest kids).

On hearing this I stopped playing, unplugged my guitar and stood up. The teacher then looked at me and started shouting

"Hey I didn't tell you to finish, I don't want you here, your a waist of space, an empty vessel"

With that I told him to go fuck himself, in front of everyone and walked out. Went back to the next rehearsal some 2 days later and carried on.

Well 6 years later I finished Uni with some of (if not the) most acclaimed compositions.

In the end, if your the type of person who is going to be put off by what other say, you shouldn't be in music full stop. Sometimes things like that, help you grow a thick skink, although its never nice.

What pat said in comparison was actually pretty cool. I certain didn't hear any shouting and the term 'Empty Vessel' lol

Heres on of my Compositions.

[West LA Jazz]

Pardon the blasphemy, but Metheny is a douche. I don't care how good he is. His attitude is everything I hate about jazz. The ultimate snob. Single-handedly invented smooth jazz, then slams anyone who plays it. And that "harmolodium" thing, or whatever he calls it, is the anti-jazz.

Go ahead everyone. Fire away.

I for one will NEVER fire away at you. The way Pat ground Kenny G into dust is just unacceptable! Really. The crazy thing is he was sitting in front of a camera and KNEW he was being recorded and still felt "okay" about excoriating a fellow musician who probably is a fan of Metheny and probably has never met him.

He never factored in one HUGE reason Kenny is so huge.... CLIVE DAVIS - probably the most legendary music executive EVER. Just check out the kinds of songs that were dominating the charts. Selling INSTRUMENTAL music to the tune of 6 million units in America alone (most vocal acts were doing a 10th of those numbers) was a MUSIC BUSINESS feat of gargantuan proportions, (But that's off topic). Music just doesn't jump of the shelves and sell you know? (Off topic alert # 2 - there is an old saying, "it's the music business and the world 'business' is longer than the word 'music' ")

Pat's great and has been smart in creating grooves that accentuate the way he "hears" rhythm. I think,... (and hear me out) His rhythms are airy and "forgiving" to an improvisor who may occasionally fall out of rhythm. In a way out comparison, his rhythm reminds me of Eminem's rhythm. It's different. But unlike Eminem, you almost never hear him do hard biting rhythms. This just what I hear. I'm sure everyone hears slightly differently according to their personal taste what they "like".

I'll take Scofield's sense of rhythm over Metheny's any day. But that's my personal taste.

But what Metheny has in his blood is he sense of melody. It's so much so that when he plays the blues I actually look for him to inject melody in his lines.

PS: I'm reading the Benson autobiography. Miles was a turd of insane proportions but at least he was Miles. Casual jazz fans know who Miles Davis is. I'm not sure the casual Jazz fan knows who Pat Metheny is.

[eh6794]

Funny, I just watched the Pat/Kenny video for the first time I know this is real blasphemy, but I puke when I listen to Pats music. Hes an absolutely great guitarist, but his music sux. Its over synthesized crap. IMHO of course. What a dik

[mr. beaumont]

I'd think Pat Metheny might be a name a casual jazz fan WOULD know...

As for Pat's music, if you think it's all oversynthesized, you haven't listened to much Pat. The PMG stuff is just one thing he does...

[West LA Jazz]

There are no more accomplished/lauded musicians than Metheny. He's at the top with the other genius musicians. At that level there are just different individuals. No "better"

I subscribe to George Benson's theory about not turning music into a "competition" among players.
I was just grasping for an analogy to express my point. The thing is, if Pat gets enraged "publicly" by what Larry and Kenny did, what do guys like Sonny Rollins, Ornette Coleman, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea to name a few actually say to Kenny G? Is the analogy I was trying to make.

When all is said and done, I personally don't think Pat stands on the same row (or room for that matter) as Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock. And yes, they command higher appearance fees than Pat (while not even counting the impact of the two pianist's work on Jazz as a whole).

Now without further ado, allow me to get back into my hole. Thank you! :-)

[ecj]

I'll say this as someone whose favorite musician in high school was Pat Metheny, as someone who has learned tons of his songs and solos, and as someone who considers him one of the greatest living musicians, on par with Herbie Hancock (whom he has played with several times, btw) and Chick Correa: Pat's weird rant on Kenny G was totally uncalled for and classless.

That said, a lot of genius level artists are not afraid to tell people what they think of everyone else's art. Wynton Marsalis is the current king of this, but I've read similar stuff coming from Miles, even Louis Armstrong bagging on Parker and bebop, etc.

I don't think I've ever read a mean word from Coltrane, and he's, IMO, the greatest musician of them all. I often look to him as a role model both musically and personally.

[3shiftgtr]

Metheny is a restless INNOVATOR. Year in, year out. And he does it within the context of jazz music. Therefore, people who want to spoon Grant Green, or Wes are going to bristle. Everything else just plain sucks, right?

The sheer number of innovations that guy has brought to the 'jazz table' is unprecedented. Most legends are lucky to bring one or two things....from tone, to gear, to composition, to arranging, to ensemble choices, to personal musical language, and lots of other things....He didn't just change this or that....he introduced innovation to every nook and cranny of jazz.

His body of work has a diversity and history of innovation that is unmatched by any jazz musician in history.

Pissing off revisionists and music school professors everywhere.

[henryrobinett]

I love Pat Metheny. Not every song or every single iteration, but I love his willingness to journey. I also LOVE his electric band and his use of synths. It's the compositions. He's a great writer and has used orchestration in a small band context brilliantly.

[West LA Jazz]

Metheny is a restless INNOVATOR. Year in, year out. ………………..


His body of work has a diversity and history of innovation that is unmatched by any jazz musician in history.

Pissing off revisionists and music school professors everywhere.

I absolutely 100% agree with your first statement. Yes, sir especially when looking through the "guitarist" lenses. Yes.

But if we were to back up and look through the spectrum of all instrumentalists and their contributions to jazz as in "unmatched by any jazz musician in history"? I think Herbie Hancock aficionado's for example will seriously beg to differ. From Miles at 24 years old through his seminal electronic forays that even took him to the top of mainstream charts to the seminal Mwansishi band band far beyond.

But by then, we might be in danger of veering off into subjective personal taste territory. ;-)

[Klatu]

The sheer number of innovations that guy has brought to the 'jazz table' is unprecedented. Most legends are lucky to bring one or two things....from tone, to gear, to composition, to arranging, to ensemble choices, to personal musical language, and lots of other things....He didn't just change this or that....he introduced innovation to every nook and cranny of jazz.

His body of work has a diversity and history of innovation that is unmatched by any jazz musician in history.

Pissing off revisionists and music school professors everywhere.

I'm familiar with some of Metheny's work, but I can't say I'm an expert. Could you please elaborate on which innovations Mr. Metheny brought to jazz and music in general?

[Klatu]

I might agree with that statement. No question about the large scope and diversity of his work. Chick Corea also comes to mind as someone who has an extremely large and diverse body of work. Perhaps not all of it great. But the quality is hard to deny.

I fully agree with this statement. I hold both Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock in the highest regards both for their ability to play just about anything they choose and their willingness to do so.

[henryrobinett]

Exactly. Where this notion came from that artists have to do our bidding I don't know. I like artists who stretch their boundaries. If I LIKE EVERYTHING an artist does it probably means he's not trying hard enough. He doesn't have much of a vision and doesn't have the guts to leave his or her own comfort zone. The musician who finds success HERE but doesn't have the guts to move THERE is not very expansive and has compromised, maybe - his role as an artist.

[targuit]

Now He Sings, Now He Sobs. Wasn't that a C Corea album title of his solo works? A double album if I recall.

Jay

[henryrobinett]

Now He Sings, Now He Sobs, was a great work of Chicks back in 1968 I think or thereabouts.It was a trio featuring Roy Haynes and Miroslav Vitous.