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Is it easier to play John Coltrane songs in Major Thirds Tuning than in standard tuning? If yes.. Why? If no.. Why not?
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08-28-2014 06:10 PM
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???
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Oh we need a poll how many use Major 3rd's tuning?
To the OP... I doubt you're going to find many people using Maj3rd tuning and into Coltrane to answer that question.
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Wouldn't it be easiest to play Coltrane songs in whatever tuning you're familiar and comfortable with?
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That's a nutty question. I can't even get my head around that one.
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Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
Or maybe not?
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Major Thirds reporting for duty.
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Admittedly I never use other tunings. I know it's cool to get different sounds and stuff. But I need to know what I'm doing. I need to know that the 7th fret on the 4th string is A and I need to know the notes of every fret on the guitar. So if the strings are tuned differently I can't think well that way. It's kind of a crap shoot. And except for a certain effect to play rhythm I can't see it. But that's just me.
The question would be why. It's seems better just to learn to play the guitar and see the progression in thirds. That seems lame along the same level as a pianist who HAS to rely on the transpose key on their keyboard, only much worse. And I've known even a couple of great pianists do that in a pinch in the studio. But it's pretty lame otherwise. Just learn the instrument the right way. You know? Sorry. I don't get it.
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If your name is Michael Hedges.
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I'm one of the few who never got him either.
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Coltrane did many things in his short life but I'm guessing you are referring to major 3rd cycle songs.
Assuming E G# C E G# C tuning. Giant Steps here's the key center root motion:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------3---------3-------3------------3---------------------------
--3---------------------3------------3------------------------------
------3--------3----------------3----------------------------------
While it certainly is orderly it would probably take more than this to make it easy.
I have never played major 3rd tuning. The only advantages that I can see for this tuning is that the chromatic scale can be played in 4 frets without extensions and that everything is symmetrical.
From my limited vantage point I would guess that some standard tuning hard chords would become easier
and some easier fingerings would become harder.
You have posted about this tuning awhile back, have you actually been playing in it?
If so, what has been your experience. If not, then do so, because that will be more informative than asking people largely with no background playing this tuning to comment. Kiefer seems to explore this and other tunings in detail
and is probably in the best position to answer questions on the day to day life in major 3rds.
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Probably not since the difficult part of Giant Steps is that it modulates quickly, more than it it doing it in major 3rds.
Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Jens
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What I mean is do the notes in Coltrane solos tend to lay under the fingers better.
Ralph Platt the Vanilla Book guy
"In 1964 I began developing and using a major third tuning for the guitar. The original purpose was to find a method for atonal improvisation for jazz. I was influenced by the music of Ornette Coleman, George Russell, John Coltrane and others who were breaking new ground in jazz in the 1960s. I was searching for a better way to facilitate improvisation using the atonal composition systems of Arnold Schoenberg. The major third tuning provides a way to do this."
The Major 3rd Tuning
I wouldn't expect anyone to denounce it if they have not tried it yet. I was hoping for at least one valid opinion from someone who has actually done it.
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you don't have to "get it" do your own thing. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Advantage of the major third tuning.
1. For single note playing;
One position of four frets contains a chromatic scale (all twelve notes) which means all possible scales are in one position. No finger stretches or shifts are required for any scale. Adjacent octaves maintain the same fingering.
Sight reading becomes easier because you rarely have to make decisions for what fingerings to use. In general you play the same note with the same finger regardless of the key or tonality you are in (or lack of key for atonal playing).
This doesn't eliminate the use of alternative fingerings (slides, trills, etc.). This tuning standardizes fingering and becomes a basis for a new system to play the guitar. The recent availability of relatively inexpensive "off the shelf" 7 string guitars makes this tuning possible for the guitarist interested in new approaches to guitar playing.
It gives the modern jazz player another (better?) way to play more complex music. I've included in the scale section a wide varity of scales that can be used for improvising. Because all possible scales fall within four frets, the fingerings are easy and can be interchanged without shifts. For example, you can start a phrase in F major and then switch to Gb major, then back to F major without shifting position.
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Ditto Major Disaster just around the corner.
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I will try it out and report back
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I have no idea. Report back with your findings!
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Guitarists have tuned to fifths (like the cello or violin) to get a very regularized fingering. Tuning to thirds would accomplish a similar thing, with the added benefit of compacting the chromatic scale to a four fret area.
As a tenor and plectrum banjoist (hey, Rob), I don't mind the different chord forms and single-note sequences associated with different tunings, Hedges or no. It's all in a day's work, to me.
Maybe I will give it a shot. I have an underused guitar around here somewhere. Hmm? Maybe it will be my "thirds" guitar for a spell.
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P4 tuning, standard tuning and Major 3rd tuning each have their advantages for certain situations.
The symmetrical tunings offer consistency of intervals.
The P4 tuning is an easier transition from standard tuning.
Standard tuning keeps all strings centered in tonality.
Major 3rd tuning delivers the chromatic scale in 4 frets (no extensions).
You will win some and lose some in every tuning.
You have to jump in there and figure it out yourself to experience the nuts and bolts.
My best guess is the advantages for major 3rd tuning are melodic and the disadvantages are chordal.
Also smaller intervals limit the range, you lose 4 half steps per position.
As I remember Ralph Patt played 7 and 8 string guitars to compensate.
I attached a fingerboard to help visualize where the intervals fall.
Report back and dazzle us with your new insights. Good luck.
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I have found that it's easier to play chromatic type stuff with thirds tuning because all of the notes are under your fingers .. not only but the strings are easier to bend like a sax player because the strings are tuned down.
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You are very kind. Originally Posted by bako
Ralph Patt was a professional studio musician and jazz player who made M3 tuning work for a decade, before he returned to geology; given Patt's professional level, I would scrutinize claims that M3 tuning be limiting.
As a beginner, I like to play chords on consecutive strings, and I was troubled by the inversions of seventh chords in M3 tuning. (Major 3rds tuning might be better for somebody who plays fingerstyle, who would have much more flexibility with chord inversion than this humble beginner did.) A big concern is that M3 tuning requires a lot more string switching and consequent demands on left-hand fingering-technique (dampening strings, cleaning leaving strings), for beginners.
I would suggest that a jazz guitarist try perfect-fourths tuning rather than M3 tuning, because it is more flexible. Most guitarists would be able to quickly adapt to P4 tuning, which is another great advantage. It also has a much wider community of guitarists, especially in jazz, than M3 tuning does. There is a great Facebook group devoted to P4 tuning, which has a lot of resources.
I am using Robert Fripp's "new standard tuning", which is based on perfect fifths C-G-D-A-E-G, because I prefer (1) I like its propensity to have perfect-fifth nuggets in its seventh chords. Even more subjectively, (2) NST chords sound better (to my ears). (3) I am better able to blend seventh chords in new standard tuning than I was in perfect-fourths tuning. (C.f. Matt Warnock's concerns about the voicings in Jody Fisher's books, especially for beginners.)
(4) Strumming 5-6 string chords is easier in NST than in P4, although this is of little interest to jazz players.
An ergonomic advantage is that (5) chords typically have the first two fingers on the bass strings and the shorter fingers on the treble strings; in M3 tuning, the fingerings typically have the first two fingers on the treble strings and the shorter fingers on the bass strings. The stretches in NST are limited if you play in major/minor scales (e.g. with a capo). For example, the C-major scale falls between open notes and frets 2-5 (or between 7-12), with the exception of the F on the first fret of the E-string.
NST may be unpleasant for chromatic scales and experimental harmony, I suspect, but this is not a concern for me. It would be impossible to satisfy the demands of the Berklee curriculum (playing closed voiced triads on consecutive strings) in NST....
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If you count the changes in Giant
Steps, there are actually more that move in fourths ( ii-V 's) than move by thirds. GS moves between tonal centers by thirds but within tonal centers by (third/sixths). And, remember GS is only one tune.
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Why? Is Coltrane hard to play in standard tuning?
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