Using m7b5 arpeggio over dominant chords

[dwertle]

Hey guys, I think I recently learned something, I just wanted to post on here so y'all can check my theory. Like the title says I think you can play a m7b5 arpeggio starting on the 3rd of a dominant chord. For example, if you're playing G7, you can use a Bm7b5 arpeggio. From what I understand, it's basically the same exact scale notes except you're not playing the I note, in this case the G. I don't know if there's much of a reason to do this. I don't think most anybody would be able to hear a difference lol I just find it interesting that you can do that. Let me know your thoughts!

[docbop]

Yup gives you a G9th chord with no root.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That "play a 9th chord with no root" applies to all chords:

Em7 (E-G-B-D) over CMaj7
FMaj7 (F-A-C-E) over Dm7

(Just think -- flip major and minor)

And over a dominant chord you can also use altered tones:

B-D-F-A over G7 (original post)
or
B-D-F-Ab
or
B-Eb-G-Bb (I don't know what to call that!)

[Rob MacKillop]

You can have fun playing through a simple 3-chord Blues, never playing the root of each chord. Some great lines to be had.

Yesterday I wrote out scale/arpeggio boxes. Might be of use to you.

[Rob MacKillop]

Also, that first box pattern is often used over a G7 chord. It's like a Pentatonic minor but with a 6th instead of a b7. Some people even call this the Robben Ford scale, as he uses it a lot.

So, a rootless C9 arpeggio could be used over a C7 chord or a G7. And also over Em7b5 and Gm6. Very useful!

Edit: strictly speaking, the Robben Ford scale over a G7 would include the root of the C9

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hi Dwertle and Big Daddy !

For Wertle

VII m7b5 is the sub of V7,as Docbop said.
If you play a mode instead of an arpeggio:

Playing the E Locrian mode (the VII degree of the Cmaj scale)on a G7:
B C D E F G A ,that is 3 11 5 13 b7 R 9, you got a G7 myxolydian

Playing the A Locrian9 mode (the VI degree of C Melodic minor scale) on a G7:
A B C D Eb F G,that is 9 3 11 5 #5 b7 R,you got a G7 Myxolydian b6

Playing the super-phrygian mode (the III degree of C Harm min scale) on a G7:
G Ab Bb B D Eb F,you got a G7Super-Phrygian:R b9 #9 3 5 b6 b7

Now,if you wish a G7 without Root and with alterations, ,play over G7 a minor pentatonic (Rb3115b7)

-on the bIII degree of G:Bb minor pentat scale :Bb Db Eb F Ab, you have on G7:
#9 #11 #5 b7 b9
-on the VII degree of G :F#minor pentat scale :F# A B C# E ,you have on G7:
7 9 3 #11 13
-on the III degree of G :Bmin pentat scale :B D E F#A :
3 5 13 7 9
-on the bII degree of G :F min pentat scale :F Ab Bb C Eb:
b7 b9 #9 11
#5
-on the bIII degree of G:Ab min pentat scale :Ab B Db Eb Gb:
b9 3 #11 #5 7
-on the bV degree of G b min pentat scale : Db E Gb Ab B :
#11 13 7 b9 3
-on the V+ degree of G :Eb min pent scale Eb Gb Ab Bb Db:
#5 7 b9 #9 #11

For Big Daddy

on B Eb G Bb over G7,if you replace G by F :B Eb F Bb ,you obtain a"so what "voicing,composed of a major third interval,a second major interval on wich is stacked a perfect fourth:3 #5 b7 #9

cheers
HB

[Rob MacKillop]

Or just play the pentatonic minor!

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

yes,but then ,you have the root!

[Reg]

Personally... it's not so much just changing the notes, or creating relationships from the G7... it's changing the reference for the relationships. What your playing has reference to.

You open the door for a possible new set of relationships etc... and now with reference to a different target...B-7b5 as compared to G7.

When I play, solo or comp, again personally the same thing, just different method of performing the notes, anyway as Hyppe... posted, one set of relationships could be modes or scales, complete note collections based on functional analysis of different degrees or starting points etc...

There are also different chordal patterns with reference to G7 or B-7b5, Chord patterns are common jazz chord phrases that imply a target chord...in your example G7 or B-7b5... basically every jazz Tune can become a Chord Pattern, not just II V's or I VI II V's, even with II V's ...

using related II- or D-7 with G7 is, or could become very different from B-7b5 E7alt, using the related V7. Then when playing the substitution chordal games that Jazz players do...

Again it's not just changing the notes, it's the relationships and the organization that those relationships imply.

[MarkRhodes]

You can have fun playing through a simple 3-chord Blues, never playing the root of each chord. Some great lines to be had.

Yesterday I wrote out scale/arpeggio boxes. Might be of use to you.

Cool stuff, Rob. Thanks. Are those Neck Diagram charts???

[monk]

....it's basically the same exact scale notes except you're not playing the I note, in this case the G.

The exact same chord tones would be a better choice of description.

Playing the E Locrian mode (the VII degree of the Cmaj scale)on a G7:
B C D E F G A ,that is 3 11 5 13 b7 R 9, you got a G7 myxolydian

The B Locrian Mode is the seventh mode of the C Major Scale.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

ouups !

As concerning colors of a G7 chord with Locrian derived modes (Locrian 9 and Locrian 6)

I forgot :

-the B Locrian9 mode of D melodic minor , who gives a G7 Lydian dominant(Bartok)
-the F Locrian9 mode of Ab melodic minor scale, who gives a G7 altered(super Locrian)
-the D Locrian6 mode of C Harmonic minor scale , who gives a G7 Spanish Gypsy

H.B

[Rob MacKillop]

Cool stuff, Rob. Thanks. Are those Neck Diagram charts???

Yes, Mark. I'm still getting used to it. These are among my first attempts at using the software. I'm very impressed with it. Maybe this forum could hold a bank of diagrams which members create? That would save us all writing out the same things independently.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

sorry ,Monk !!
It's well the B locrian, it's a typing error !!
H.B

[dasein]

you can also play Fm7b5 over G7 if you want some more tension/colo

either think of it as a m7b5 starting on the b7 of the dominant

OR...

a m7b5 starting on the 3rd of Db7 (the tri-tone sub). that's how i think of it.

[monk]

sorry ,Monk !!
It's well the B locrian, it's a typing error !!
H.B

HB,
I was certain that it was a typing error but I wanted to point it out so that any incoming novices would not be confused.
Regards,
Jerome

[Tom Painter]

Does anyone else ever feel like having a bazillion different theoretical names for one *sound* is more confusing than enlightening?

Not bashing theory, and I think it is true that knowing some can help you make connections that you might not ordinarily make BUT...I can also see how all of these multiple theoretical substitutions can be extremely confusing to a beginner.

Simple example, I was transcribing Bird's turnaround on the first chorus of his solo on Au Privave yesterday. He very clearly plays a Bbmaj7 arpeggio on a Gm7. Of course in the context of the root that would be a Gm9 arpeggio but...it just got me thinking what would Wes, Joe Pass or George Benson think about it? From what I have heard/read about them and their approach to learning this music they did not think in highly theoretical terms, they just came to know the *sounds*.

Sometimes I feel like more emphasis should be placed on learning the *sounds* and not getting too bogged down in the theory...

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Yes Dasein!

that gives ,as played like an arpeggio b7 b9 3 #5: G7 b9#5
but I prefer to play the F Locrian mode over G7, (b7 7 b9 #9 3 #11 #5):that gives more tension,and a nice be-bop b7-7
HB

[Rob MacKillop]

I hope we haven't driven the original poster to despair. He should be congratulated for working out something which is very important. That's probably enough for now. Once you get used to, maybe then return to this thread to make more sense of what has been discussed.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

I agree with you,Tom.
But don't be confused; in reality,that's clear.

Let me say that, since the Middle Ages, the modality inside scales did already exist !

Take the Cmajor scale by exemple:

On Middle Age luth sheets, you can see sometimes that a Cmaj mode (the first mode of Cmajor scale) may be replaced by:

Dm (2nd mode) Em (third mode) Fmaj(fourth mode) G maj(fifth mode) Amin (sixth mode)and Bmin7b5 (seventh mode)

That will say that you can always replace in a scale whatever mode by another in the same scale!

AND that works well for all the scales:major,minor natural,melodic minor, Harmonic minor,Harmonic major, etc

Beginning on the first degree of a mode (by ex over G7 ,beginning over the V degree ,G Myxolydian) becomes rapidly boring and scholar! Play ,by ex,on G7 a Bmin7b5 (degree VIIof Cmaj scale)or ,by ex, a F Lydian (the degree IV of Cmaj scale)

cheers
HB

[Tom Painter]

I agree with you too, HB.

I was just making the contrarian argument that a very large number of jazz "greats" had no idea about what you just wrote, they just knew the *sounds*!

[Rob MacKillop]

On Middle Age luth sheets, you can see sometimes that a Cmaj mode (the first mode of Cmajor scale) may be replaced by

By Middle Ages, do you mean the medieval period? If so, I can assure you that no lute manuscripts survive from that time.

[MarkRhodes]

Yes, Mark. I'm still getting used to it. These are among my first attempts at using the software. I'm very impressed with it. Maybe this forum could hold a bank of diagrams which members create? That would save us all writing out the same things independently.

I still haven't bought the bullet---waiting until the first of the month. But I am sold on the stuff. Those charts you made are nice.

As for having a bank for diagrams, I like that idea a lot.Thanks for suggesting it. I'll ask Dirk what he thinks.

I wonder how popular this software is. (Being used here might make it more popular---I'm going to get it because of what I heard / saw of it here.)

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

I spoke of the beginning of the XIV century.A friend of mine,who play anciens luth music showed me those tablatures.
Sorry if I have in correctly naimed that Middle Age
HB

[Rob MacKillop]

That's OK. The earliest lute tab is in German notation from 1470-1473, and it is extremely basic. Certainly there are no indications of modes. But, no matter, your main point is interesting.