Do you plan and prepare your guitar solos - or do you make it up on the spot?

[henryrobinett]

Well that's fine, in terms if JAZZ I'm ONLY interested if it's improvised. I'm sorry. That's just me.

[henryrobinett]

You realize I'm talking jazz, right? I stated elsewhere about About my love for Shostakovich, Prokofiev and through composed music. But that's not what I'm talking about.

[Patrick2]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying I don't like it. Patrick, you mentioned a lot of vocalists and not hardcore jazz instrumentalists or improvisers. I've seen Sassy about 6 times. She never performed those songs the same though there may have been a time when she performed her more popular songs note for note.

Yeah . . so as I mentioned, it's just a matter of wording. We're pretty much in agreement that reciting a previously written/arranged solo in definitely NOT improvisation. My only issue was with your statement that it's not a performance. Sassy took a tune, and sometimes recited the exact same lyrics . . . but, sometimes . . (often times) . . she'd change note values as well as placement. I've heard her sometimes ping a note spot on . . sometimes slide up to the note . . . sometimes run a scale up to the note. So, she improvised a variation of a previously written melody. The same can be done by you, if you chose to cover a previously recorded Joe Pass or Bird solo . . but, offer your own improvised variations of it, or deviations from the point of exact replication. You'd still be performing that solo. That's all I'm saying. Oh . . and even if you were to cover it note for note with no rhythmic variation . . it was still be jazz. Because, it was written and recorded as jazz. Definitely less excitiong to you as a player and to some as listeners, but jazz none the less.

A while back you posted two seperate recordings of the head of Donna Lee, asking if we'd comment on which we liked better, the clean version or the one with a bit of edge on it. Well, is learning and delivering the head of Donna Lee not jazz?

[henryrobinett]

I was saying that working out a solo at home and in practice is not the same as performing a solo or as performing that worked out solo.

[woland]

We're pretty much in agreement that reciting a previously written/arranged solo in definitely NOT improvisation.

Many (35 or so) years ago I was listening to radio jazz program on the other side of the pond. The DJ - very knowledgeable jazz musician and arranger himself was exploring the topic "are those brilliant solos - on US jazz records - pre-composed or improvised?". I do not remember the verdict but I vaguely remember that there was some notion that jazz purity would require those solos to be created in a moment - like those Japanese silk point - long meditation followed by rapid delivery (and no room for errors). Personally I would not care if artist composed solo as long as they can create delivery that has the vibe of live delivery - nothing is deliberate or obvious - there is aura of discovery.

Just for sake of demonstration (and to throw my hat in the ring and and demonstrate my own playing or rather lack of it ;-) ) here's late night take inspired by Metheny/Haden's "Spritual". I recorded 3 layers - chords, bass and solo. Everything is 1st take - I did not practice the solo:

[fep]

There's another thing. Some musicians seem to have such incredible memories.

Lee Ritenour had a prolific studio career starting when he was 16 and recorded on over 3,000 records. The studio musician can't prepare as they often don't know what they will be playing.

I remember a video of Lee where he was talking about a solo on some studio date that he pulled off what sounded like note for note. Then he said he had another take where he did "something like this", and that also was so well put together that he seemed to be remembering it note for note. For someone with that kind of memory, it seems the lines get blurred. He's not practicing the solo, he just remembers it. (perhaps it's not exactly note for note, maybe it just sounds like it). Kind of like improvising as he didn't drill it in as part of a preparation.

[henryrobinett]

I did a session with this remarkable singer. He was an r&b singer in the style of Stevie Wonder. He did all of these licks. These were. My sings he was singing so I know he didn't have a lot of prep time. He developed this technique because he felt his voice wasn't meaty enough. But he doubled and triple tracked everything and normally nailed it the first time. He produced and wrote the music fir his babd SWV - Sisters with Voices, if you've ever heard of them. And I swear it's really his voice doing all of them.

[woland]

There's another thing. Some musicians seem to have such incredible memories.

Lee Ritenour had a prolific studio career starting when he was 16 and recorded on over 3,000 records. The studio musician can't prepare as they often don't know what they will be playing.

I remember a video of Lee where he was talking about a solo on some studio date that he pulled off what sounded like note for note. Then he said he had another take where he did "something like this", and that also was so well put together that he seemed to be remembering it note for note. For someone with that kind of memory, it seems the lines get blurred. He's not practicing the solo, he just remembers it. (perhaps it's not exactly note for note, maybe it just sounds like it). Kind of like improvising as he didn't drill it in as part of a preparation.

That for me is source of great jealousy - I can barely remember what I played yesterday ;-)
That is why I opted to memorize "model solos" so I always have some guiding set of ideas
(I never play it not for note anyway). And if in second chorus I hear something different then I may go for it.
Worst moments is when I am completely clueless and I am just faking it - esp when it comes at the very beginning.

[henryrobinett]

That's why for me it's always been the mantra - know what you're doing. FOR ME the idea of memorizing a solo and certainly memorizing someone ELSES solo was the OPPOSITE if what I wanted to do. But knowing music, know the chords and the song and the structure of what I was doing as a soloist was of senior importance. And also a damn sight harder. Not using someone else's template puts the onus on you.

[djangoles]

not sure how it all relates to OP....but it might

Jojo Mayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JazzOnSix]

I was at the same concert and got the same program and had similar epiphanies. Herbie said playing the blues never cane naturally. He had to really study it. And Chick memorized Bud Powell solos so well that years later after seeing film of Powell playing for the first time he duplicated Bud so thoroughly that his body bending in the same way.

Sorry that it's taken awhile to get back over here, but man.. that's amazing that you and I were at the same concert and had an identical reaction after reading that interview. At the time I needed all the encouragement I could get, because before I started to seriously transcribe (learn by ear) I was a lost jazz soul who at one point had given up the quest altogether.

In retrospect I had been misled and concluded that I just "didn't have it" to play jazz, but hearing an iconic legend like Herbie express the same sentiment about blues made me feel that I wasn't alone, and that if I did what was required (like he and so many of my other influences had done) I could eventually achieve my goals. I haven't looked back since. It's all about the path, which continues to elude so many aspiring players.