Playing with a Pianist

[rintincop]

As a pianist I find comping with many good guitarists not much of a problem. I think it's because we both realize we need to play along the same standard changes and don't re-harm or over alter much. We do tend to flat 9 freely on V7 chords and not much more. Our voicings become thinner and if we have a good rhythm flow we find we can blend well enough and be mutually acceptable. Re-harm or unusual alterations should be discussed beforehand.

[circle110]

I play with some very fine pianists and here are my personal rules for comping in a context where piano and guitar are both present:

Cardinal Rule #1: Shut up unless you have an idea that will definitely make the music better.

If I truly think that an idea I have will add something to the music, then I will use it. Here are some things that I have found to work (depending on the context, the style of the tune and what the piano player is playing):

* Playing a very soft, warm chord voicing on the first beat of the chord change. For this you have to use shell type voicings to avoid harmonic clashes with the piano.

* Playing a higher voicing softly (perhaps with a volume fade in) later in the measure. This allows you to first hear the pianist's alterations (or lack thereof) and choose your chord accordingly. You are gently reinforcing what the piano played in an orchestral sense.

* Lightly playing a riff figure. This works best on bluesy or groove based tunes. You may have to mod the notes in your riff to accommodate the changes in harmony.

* Playing soft octaves in half notes or whole notes. You have to be careful not to pick notes that the pianist may or may not alter.

* For certain feels (straight 8ths or up tunes) playing muted diads using a lot of rhythmic space can work.

* Many times bringing the guitar in later in the solo works well. For example, add the guitar for the last chorus or even just the last 8 of a solo. That's another way of thinking like an orchestrator.

I avoid a lot of rhythmic activity since that tends to lead to rhythm clashes with the pianist.

A lot of these ideas came from listening to great big band writers and studying the things they write for backgrounds and pads behind a soloist. They assume the presence of a piano and write things that will work well in that context. Of course, the big band writer is pre-deciding what alterations to use and telling the pianist in the chart so they plan the backgrounds accordingly.


But then again, most of the time I go with my Rule #1 - lay out.

[fumblefingers]

Russell Malone did a bit of the Freddie Green thing last night with Ron Carter and a pianist, but only for short stretches.

this was very swinging music, style wise BTW.

[vhollund]

I think the reason you clash is because you play the same place/way she is
maybe your sustained chords contain too many notes
If there's a rythmic counter point going on, it should'nt matter as much

[christianm77]

All good advice...

My 10 cents/2ps worth? Freddie Green is great if done well in a mainstream/standards situation. Check out what John Pizarelli and James Chirillo say about the style on You Tube - the one note chord approach. Can't go wrong harmony wise right? :-)

Many jazz guitarists play Freddie Green style incorrectly - it's not simply playing chords four to a bar. It's hard to get right, a life's work in Freddie's case! It's largely a feel thing - it can sound really hip, not corny in the slightest. If it sounds corny it's because you can't actually do it right :-) So it boils down to how much time you spend on it, like anything.

If FG style rhythm guitar is your vibe and a specialism go with it I think. Otherwise, maybe not that cool?

A lot of the issues that come up in piano/guitar combos also come up with two guitars together. People have different comping styles. I kind of treat extensions with care. 3+7 always sound good, boring though that is, you are after all accompanying the soloist and enriching the ensemble, not entertaining yourself.

There seems to be a direct correlation between how attentive to a guitar player a piano player is and how well they know the tune. Some pianists are more used to playing with guitar players that others. Obviously think about how this can be turned around to their perspective.

I don't think piano/guitar is inherently different to any other relationship between musicians - it's more that some line ups have a greater tolerance for non listening playing - for example the kind of playing that is likely to occur in a jam! Because in a conventional setting there's a clear volume hierarchy between sax/tpt, piano, bass, and because piano tonally is very different from a horn, a pianist can get away with comping really heavily all the time on horn solos without it being offensively in the way. Sometimes the piano player can't really hear themselves anyway. So often you kind of have to lay out and let them do their thing.

In other words think - what can I play, if anything that will add to the music? If nothing will make it better, play nothing.

The band will thank you for your restraint.

Easier said than done ;-)

[SuperFour00]

Youtube clips are the way to learn to play with pianists; not only can you hear the interplay, but you can see the eye contact and/or body language most of the time. Learn from the talented and notable examples of the craft ... however, watching the greats mostly prepares you to play with great pianists. If you ever have to play with an overbearing player, all bets are off. In cases like that, try to play less, and if possible, in ranges that don't crowd the pianist's phrases. Playing with less-than-talented musicians is a learning experience .. at least try to stay optimistic about it.

[henryrobinett]

What is an overbearing player? What does that mean? I've played with some really great pianists. Jessica Williams and Joe Gilman, who has been my musical compatriot for 30 some years. I've played with Bob Neloms, Mingus' last pianist, Geoffery Keezer, Benny Green and a ton of great guys inbetween. Are these guys overbearing or are they just really good? It's hard to tell with videos because it all is relational - relative to who it is and who's gig it is. Pass is going to stay out of Petersons way. Oscar plays so much, there's little room.

As as I said some place else I was doing a gig with trumpeter Ingrid Jensen, she was very adamant that there should only be one person comping. She didn't care whether it was me or the pianist. It's like the conversation in the rhythm section needs to be clear, direct and uncluttered. This isn't the same for everyone, but it's pretty standard. Chick Corea handles the problem by dictating that if the guitarist isn't playing written ensemble lines or soloing he's not playing at all.

Big I ears, as always.