how to solo outside the changes

[goldenwave77]

Vic Juris has a book/CD available through MelBay (available at Amazon) called "Inside/Outside". On it he plays fifteen well known jazz standards in an "outside" manner. The guitar solos are fully transcribed and tabs and notation, I believe, are provided.

I don't know this product personally but it has been well-reviewed. Vic J. played for many years with David Liebman, the sax player, who is well known for his outside approach. From the review I looked at, there is not much explanation, but this seems like a good resource for an intermediate/advanced player who can look at the lines themselves and figure out what is going on. (Vic J. also teaches at several colleges, and may well be available for remote personal lessons as well, though obviously you would need to check with him on that.)

(I should add that I have no affiliation with Vic J. and profit in no way from his product. It is just that every serious musician I have ever talked to has spoken of him as a monster player, and a nice guy, to boot on top of that.)

[Reg]

You generally need a reference for anything to out or in... and obviously there are different levels of being "out" in the context of a reference.

I guess you can randomly throw or play anything and see what you think or like... but generally there are organizational concepts for creating relationships.... what your playing with reference to what your playing with or against, how ever you want to verbally call it.

You really can't just go by your ear... unless you've put in you time performing with all the performers. Once you've educated your ears... by whatever means you choose. maybe.

I posted some info on use of pentatonic applications a little while ago and you can see how different applications move further away from the starting tonal reference. The posts were just the basics, but the basic concept of how to progress further away from whatever tonal reference you choose might help understand what playing outside can be based on... using an organized approach.

Just changing a note or use of chromatic(s) notes... is usually derived from harmonic or melodic application of a harmonic concept and an application of that concept.

Obviously in real time at the speed of jazz... the thinking process might be difficult. But that's the point... were talking about the subject now.

Vic uses some pentatonic applications... modal pentatonic applications, (Min pentatonic 1/2 step below maj chords. Use of the other Min pentatonic pattern, 1 2 b3 5 6 starting on 2nd degree... you get that Dom7b9 sound, which can modal interchange to Melodic Min. typical applications.
Throw in modal interchange and synthetic harmonic sources... you'll get outside. Then you need to be able to use the applications with reference to the tune.

Tension release or use of strong weak concepts will help create form for use of outside performance...

[mr. beaumont]

Quick idea, very basic...with reference in mind...videos are always better than more talk.

And yeah, I shaved.

Simple way to out...not the only way.

[bako]

I prefer to think of embracing an ever expanding sense of the "inside".
"Outside" is a random event, an accident in progress, something beyond my control.
When I say inside, I am speaking about a desire to hear, comprehend and execute a wide array of musical relationships. Multiple paths converging on a common destination or a singular journey that refuses to come ashore. Full spectrum consonance/dissonance accessed in organized ways
(several which are referenced in previous posts).
Even a tone row will be stating the basic harmonic reference notes upwards of 50% of the time.

[inwalkedbud]

I prefer to think of embracing an ever expanding sense of the "inside".
"Outside" is a random event, an accident in progress, something beyond my control.
When I say inside, I am speaking about a desire to hear, comprehend and execute a wide array of musical relationships.
Multiple paths converging on a common destination or a singular journey that refuses to come ashore.
Full spectrum consonance/dissonance accessed in organized ways. (several which are referenced in previous posts).
Even a tone row will be stating the basic harmonic reference notes upwards of 50% of the time.

not sure I follow all of this ... but! I like your main idea. The fact that there are competing notions of in and out in jazz and music in general means these things are all relative. In a sense for "out" playing to sound convincing it has to sound "in" to you. It has to make sense with what you're doing and sound convincing in context and work for a nice ebb and flow with the more "in" lines you play.

In a sense what you're trying to do is expand your sense of what sounds in and cool and melodic and beautiful to you to encompass more and more adventurous and unconventional sounds. Eventually you get to the point of someone like Vic or Liebman (or any other master for the past several decades) where everything is just another color to paint with.

I got a lesson with a reasonably prominent player who incorporated a lot of folk sounds from his home country into his jazz playing. I was trying to ask him how he expanded his melodic bag to incorporate those things and accidently used the word "weird" in reference to some of his ideas. He stopped and looked confused so I back pedaled and explained what I was talking about. He said "well... those ideas aren't weird to me"

Didn't get the answer I intended to get but it was an answer none-the-less

[Sam Sherry]

Players like jim hall, john coltrane always solo outside the chord changes.

He said "well... those ideas aren't weird to me."

That's it right there. Jim Hall, John Coltrane and {insert name here} didn't think about playing 'inside' or 'outside' the changes. They had a full-sized, unlimited space full of 'inside and different inside.'

Most importantly, they didn't say "I will now play out, man, so I can be, like, out, man, y'know!" Everything they played was in relation to the music that was going on around them on the bandstand at that moment (including the music they had made themselves). That relationship may sound like skronk to some -- sometimes to me FWIW -- but it is always present.

If you can't hear it you can't play it and mean it. There are many fine suggestions so far for stretching your mind and that's essential. In the process -- or, dare I say it, outside of the process -- ears stretch too.

"I'm out!"

[TH]

A concert with Jimmy Guiffre in his later years was beautiful in its melodic fit with the chord structure. When it was ventured a comment on how tame and inside it was, I think it was Swallow who commented "He's been out so long, who knows what that sounds like to him. It may be the most out thing he can imagine."
David

[Reg]

I didn't know Coltrane... but did get many stories from Cedar Walton, who I did get to perform with... Coltrane practiced a lot... a whole lot.

Sam... yea, if you can't hear it... personally it takes too much time to beat it into your ears, so I tend to understand. at least try and understand, music isn't that complicated, when you break it down.

Mr B... so your sidesteppin method is usually a dominant harmonic application.(sub V). Make it constant structure with modal interchange or whatever method you want to use as reference. My point the method has an organized application beyond just transposing the lick. You can approach any tonal reference... your II V, from eleven other note or tonal references, and what lick or chord you approach with has all the options. if you choose.

The further what your using as a reference for what your playing gets harmonically away from the target tonal reference.... the more outside the application is. It can be very mechanically organized. But generally we use what we like... if you have one choice... that's what your going to use, in any context, if you have a lot of choices... you generally can express your self and maybe even be musical. Disclaimer... I like sidesteppin, I wrote a tune called "SideSteppin" on a CD last year, and the inspiration for tune was from this forum.

Personally back in the fusion years 70's or modal years before... playing outside became a skill ... making what you play sound inside or making inside sound out.

[Jonah]

You know by all the samples and all that was written and what I feel or think about I can judge that to feel onself outside, you have somehow to hav ethe feel of inside first, right?

outside is practically understood by "what is not inside". But inside on the contrary can be quite elaborated.

Like a house where you live is inside, and all the world out of it out side. It is huge - lots of ways and places, but still we start from home and go somewhere, or just anywhere, but keep in mind returning home, or even not - all these will make concepts of being outside. And music-wise it is very personal...
But one thing is for sure is what we take as 'inside' - because it is impossible to go outside without it.

PS
Another point is that very soon it may turn that outside becomes a continuation of the inside for you. The hearest woods, streets, becomes a home for you, and yet for another guy maybe to come out of the room is already an 'outside'.

And the last point some people just feel inside anywhere they go.

Sorry for such a long metaphor... but having read through and looked at the samples I saw the diversity of opinions... and the term seems quite occasional to me.

So answering the TC question I would say: If you feel yourself inside musically and have problem with goimg outside, then define what concept makes the musical feel of inside for you, and then the next step will be to find the ways to extend this concept.

Because the other important point is that we can speak only about 'outside' as an extention of the 'inside concept'.
If we lose the relations with inside, then we move to a new home and start a new life

[eh6794]

Im pretty new to jazz, so im still learning different techniques from different sources. John Stowell has a few cool classes on Truefire.

Im writing a bunch of lines right now in cycles of fourths (C, F, Bb, Eb etc). As the line moves it goes farther out until i resolve it.

Over the 1625, I make the 1st, 4th, 7th etc, note correspond to the next note of the cycle but i will leave the 2nd, 3rd, 5th etc, notes as chord tones (thats in triplets but it doesn't have to be).

To me, that sounds cool and it sets up a pattern to move the line forward. I believe thats similar to the Nicolas Slominski technique. He picks some cycle of notes, then he seseparates them at regular distances apart. The notes in between are fillers, or they are notes that get you to the fourths. . At least thats what I got from his book. John Coltrane studied this method

[TH]

I believe thats similar to the Nicolas Slominski technique. He picks some cycle of notes, then he separates them at regular distances apart. The notes in between are fillers, or they are notes that get you to the fourths. . At least thats what I got from his book. John Coltrane studied this method

Symmetrical scales. The 12 tones can be broken up into even groups of 12, 2, 3, 4, 6 and each one of these are groups of tonics.
Hey another way of breaking down diatonic/non diatonic inside/outside is through the Schillinger system of symmetrical scales. A little mention of these topics obliquely in this thread https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...visors-os.html and I know there was some more in depth discussion of Schillinger, but I can't find them now.

David

[jtizzle]

Study harmony. A lot of people think playing outside is playing chromatically, and thats why a lot of people sound bad at it.
When you study modern post-tonal harmony, you can learn to apply these techniques into your improvising. Charlie Parker (although not out) was really into Stravinsky, for example, and you can learn a lot about post-tonal harmony from Stravinsky.

There's a whole group of guys making jazz out of serialism (12 tone, etc), which sounds like an oxymoron, but it sounds great. Tim Hagans is doing this.

Also check out what guys that do more non-functional harmony do. See how you can apply, for example, something you would do on ESP over a tune like all the things you are. Imply things that sound like something that it's not.

[nado64]

Then we need a memo: Don't forget your sitar when you go outside.

What is it ? sarcasm, irony , bad joke... ?

[bluewaterpig]

A very very very simple way to start approaching the "outside" sound is to play a half step above whatever "inside" would be. I consider this to be the most direct approach to get that sound in your head.

Everything thats been said in this thread about the term "outside" is very true...it's a very ambiguous term that lacks a fixed definition but the closest description I've ever heard is "something that sounds intentionally wrong"...it's always very clear when a skilled player is purposefully disregarding the changes.



Another very effective way to approach outside playing is to explore scales that yield interesting sounds over a something like a minor 7 chord drone. To get you started...

Over an Am7 vamp:

F minor pentatonic/blues
Eb minor pentatonic/blues
B dorian
Bb dorian
C dorian
E mixolydian (tension looking to resolve)

[bluewaterpig]

Speaking of Jim Hall being "out", he's on an album that every jazz musician interested in outside playing should own:

Jazz Abstracrions by John Lewis

Amazon.com: John Lewis Presents Jazz Abstractions: John Lewis: MP3 Downloads

[JazzVocab]

There's some interesting observations in this thread but IMO (as some people have eluded to) outside really shouldn't have a theoretical impetus, it truly should be an act of the unconscious married with the most important thing which I don't think anyone mentioned...... CONFIDENCE!
Any half hearted apologetic attempt to expand the harmonic moment will sound exactly like that- half hearted but marry that harmonic concept happening at that moment with a stare into the eyes of your audience and played with an unflinching passion and confidence- you are playing out for real.

[JazzVocab]

There are plenty of points that I jump out in this (timing wise as well...!)

[Reg]

Cool Dan... Yea, what make ones playing sound confident. Generally rhythm and articulations. With a vid... maybe the actual performance on stage skills.

Like I said earlier... with out a reference... there is no outside. Rhythmically in your vid example... you sound "in" when you locked into the feel of your backing track, when you stared playing mechanically organized licks, your rhythmic feel became "out"... you lost that swing feel, which when in that feel... basically anything you wanted to play "in".

Again cool playin...

So generally most Jazz players are technically always "out" at least in reference to the basic changes or melody. But how and what you imply buy your playing generally keeps the sound "in".

Personally the actual notes of what I'm playing doesn't really get out... I'm still trying to say something from my reference... whether it's melodic development or harmonic. I can get outside of what I'm playing buy creating different relationships and developing from different reference.

Here's an old "How Insensitive" Reharm... Is this out? it's the same melody, but the changes have a different tonal reference.

Here's another reharm. but of Days of Wine and Roses... old and lousy but... sounds out when I think of Days of Wine and Roses

[Jonzo]

Interestingly, while playing outside is generally considered an advanced topic, the notion of "getting back inside" was one of the first concepts my son's teacher taught him--because beginners often find themselves outside unintentionally.

[edh]

Interestingly, while playing outside is generally considered an advanced topic, the notion of "getting back inside" was one of the first concepts my son's teacher taught him--because beginners often find themselves outside unintentionally.

Great point.

[docbop]

Interestingly, while playing outside is generally considered an advanced topic, the notion of "getting back inside" was one of the first concepts my son's teacher taught him--because beginners often find themselves outside unintentionally.

Howard Roberts used to say... Any note works if you play it fast enough. Also said.... You're never more than a half-step from the right note.

As they say you'll never know when a great musician makes a mistake as Miles said... There are no mistakes only opportunities.

[Jonah]

There are no mistakes only opportunities

to make a mistake.

kidding... I got your point. But still it is a bit too abstract.

THere's a mistake when you are within a concept... the point is 'playing outside' is very much jazz-rooted notion.

For me it also comes from thinking in layers - like harmony changes is one layer, and melodic line improvized or played is another - this works even in straight-ahead jazz.
I would even say that harmonic layer is kind of 'mode' here - it can be vairied but not as regular tonallity would woth key chges and so, but also 'inside' - but the way this layer concept seems to be the reason why they never tried to use the most obvious way to play outside - that is modulation...
From this point there is no big difference between modal harmony or regular functional harmony.

So 'outside' here is really depending on what we keep in our mind as 'inside'. Even if it is not played it is meant to be there.... to feel the realtion.
(Many times mentioned priciple of 'getting back inside' is actually the same point, if you clearly understand what is 'inside' and feel your 'outside' as related to it, you will find a way to come back).

Sample video of Mr. Beaumont shows very simple lick that gives a momentary feel of loosing the key and than coming back... it is like shifting a bit aside.

If every player in the band plays 'outside' according to more or less the same principles, and if the players are good I get the feel that there's still strong tensions of harmony but practically almost no harmony played actually - only meant in some sliding cross-points between.

As per concepts I still think that there could plenty of them, but - I know that not all would agree - I still believe that hearing go first here, not that we just should play by ear, but that this feel of 'outside-inside' realation is very subtle and individuale and and depends much on what one's hear in music as tension/release etc...it should be like a little bit like blind-searching... to feel it out to form out of it one's own practical concept.
What I mean that probably it is the most practical issue in jazz playing. One should always try and try again to make it out...

I meant it is like aesthetics of this concept, practically behid it there can be any logical elaborated techiques, whatever. But this feel of deviation investigated 'on-line' should be always there

On the other hand I think that complexity of this playing is overestimated a bit... this is more about difficulty of understanding what it is- especially the word.

[mr. beaumont]

Which is why I say it's better to think of "outside" as an approach, not just a "sound."

[docbop]

If every player in the band plays 'outside' according to more or less the same principles, and if the players are good I get the feel that there's still strong tensions of harmony but practically almost no harmony played actually - only meant in some sliding cross-points between.

If every player is playing 'outside' then its no longer outside. That is part of learning what a soloist's wants from the accompanist. Some want you to follow where they are taking the tune, and others are trying to go out from what the band is playing. That's where eye contact is vital.

[Jonah]

If every player is playing 'outside' then its no longer outside.

Sorry, but I do not understand why.
'Inside' is musical concept, 'outside' is anything out of it, it is not concept - just an intention, or approach as Mr. Beaumont suggests... so what is going to happen when every one in a band plays outside we cannot actually say - too many opportunities here.. random factor though with some basic determinations set up by the band paticipants - not by us.
but as I said when they are good together, and they are talented we can catch the feel of harmonic tension when actually no harmony is played straightly only supposedly.
It is very subtle - for an ear trained in functional concept even two bring harmonic background so what heppens when there are plenty of notes and outside - who knows...

That is part of learning what a soloist's wants from the accompanist. Some want you to follow where they are taking the tune, and others are trying to go out from what the band is playing. That's where eye contact is vital.

It depends on style of the band also - it maybe that the roles are not that determined in outside playing.
I gave an ultimate sample
Soul contac would be really vital in this case)))