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That's really nice. I can actually see your thought process and the flow of the melody arc along the string and the support from the harmony from the other stings.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Thanks for showing the catalytic idea being applied in making some really nice music.
A dip from the classical world. Check out how the travel along the single string adds lyricism and brings out the harmonic content but the character is brought out by the travel along the single string. This is the awareness that I believe Mick is trying to pay awareness to. Villa Lobos was a guitar player himself and obviously knew the power of using the linear nature of the string to get a lyrical line. Interestingly enough too, he never gave any fingering or position indications in his guitar compositions, almost to say "Get to know what the music is telling you and let the guitar show the fingering, not me."
Hmm, I think some people are missing the point of Mick's suggestion, and yes, taking it a little literally. Like somebody asking a friend for advice on their wardrobe, and the friend says "Try switching to a more colourful tie for a change." The next day the guy comes back and says "Hey I got arrested and the girls all ran the other way!" His friend points out "Gosh, I didn't mean that's ALL you should wear..."
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-06-2014 at 10:44 AM.
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06-06-2014 09:32 AM
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As I noted before, I have never read this tome or any other "jazz guitar" method book for that matter. My most enduring and insightful lessons on melody, harmony, rhythm, and jazz colors have come from both guitarists and pianists. Both instruments are polyphonic and percussive in nature, while the guitar has the gift of legato phrasing and vibrato which mimics the human voice. So the expressive potential of the guitar is quite different. I 'm in the mini-orchestra camp with Beethoven, if I recall, who intoned that the guitar in the hands of a great musician is a mini orchestra.
When I practice solo chord melody style, my approach is much like that of Ralph Towner and Gene Bertoncini. Although I don't include myself in their exalted jazz circle, one thing we have in common is our classical training including Segovia scales. Btw, Henry, the scales don't differ - the fingering does, and I know that and the transitions must be what you refer to as antithetical to jazz.
In any case, the most profound insights for me personally lately have been in two characteristics of improvisation and music theory intertwined with performance. The first is the importance of intentionality in playing, whether solo melody notes or chord melody counterpoint. This relates perhaps to the value of playing on a single string, also in regards to tone production as in slurs. In other words, sometimes the decision to slide a note from the D on the second string third fret to the F# on the the seventh fret imparts a tone and emotive vocal quality that is distinct on string instruments. And intentionality also denotes another characteristic that to me transcends the instrument itself. I think of performing music sometimes in terms of the metaphor of a music box. I was always fascinated by them as a kid, with their rotating cylinders sounding tiny tines that chimed. To me the intentionality of a solo melody or chordal playing ideally has not a mechanistic quality but a deterministic sense of direction and intention.
The second insight I had recently courtesy of a brilliant piano player and composer whose solo piano interpretations of jazz standards are exquisite. His insights related to the emotional color of chordal harmony and the importance of linking that emotional color that the chordal extensions and voicings evoke in you with the 'theoretical' harmonic basis.
While this might sound either commonplace or peculiar to some, thinking about it as you practice various forms of chordal extensions can deepen your playing.
And finally, the last thing that comes to mind is this same individual's advice regarding playing music and practicing with your eyes closed. Really. Seems that Litzt and Chopin were both advocates of that approach, and I humbly add my thumbs up, too. Playing with eyes closed without reference to the visual world and immersed in the auditory time space dimension of music is so helpful to freeing oneself from "thinking about" playing guitar to just making the music happen with emotional content and intentionality like the deterministic music box.
Anyway, excuse me for the long post, but perhaps one of the values of single string practice might be to focus on those type of observations and skills. The master of stating a melody line that bursts with emotional tone and intention is Julian Bream in my mind. One last thing. On YT one can find a Barney Kessel teaching video which is excellent in my opinion and touches on some interesting points.
JayLast edited by targuit; 06-06-2014 at 10:10 AM.
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Jeff - I did not see your post before I put mine up. Liked your playing, though the setting detracted some. I thought at first you were going to play Maiden Voyage on one string. I was looking forward to that; then I realized I couldn't remember Maiden Voyage. Seriously.
Your B string was pretty good. When do we get to hear the one string version?Last edited by targuit; 06-06-2014 at 09:57 AM.
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Cool.
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Yeah...well, I'd certainly never try and record a professional quality video during wind sprints
There is no "one string version" though. Practicing melodies on one string informed this recording...the one string melody thing is pretty basic...wouldn't make for that interesting of a recording, but having that in mind really influenced how I went in.
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Single string playing is not going to magically transform you into someone else. It's a standard technique that need to be developed... one of many obviously. If the technique opens your ears, eyes or any doors to different understanding, perspectives great... enjoy the enlightenment and move on.
Generally there are basic reasons where you play what you hear or whatever method you use to perform on your instrument.
Many times... notation implies how or where you should perform something, phrasing, articulations etc. And if your simply soloing... just as you hear the notes your trying to play... you also should be hearing the phrasing and as bako mentioned the tone quality which can be influenced by where and what string you choose to use.
The technique can also be a very useful rhythmic effect, a method of performing organized melodic patterns or sequences.
If you've seen any of my vids... I use the effect probably too much. But it's one of those sounds I like.
Generally used on the upper strings but when I'm covering a low range head with a Tenor, something like Brecker's "Midnight Voyage"... I believe with Metheny, it's a cool tune and very fun to play on. Anyway the melody uses that low range thick sound and also the upper range top strings for the effect.
If you've thought about tone quality and character... then thought about Temporal Theory and perception of pitch with reference to both location and patterns... long story about the physical effects of using this technique. Like I mentioned before generally after you move on... you'll develop usage of a technique, as compared to the technique using you.
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That's why he's called Mr. B Originally Posted by targuit
Now somebody took the unitar and took it to a whole new place. Think he has issues with playing the same tired chord grabs?
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-06-2014 at 11:15 AM.
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in addition to every reason given, some lines are just easier to play on one string. some lines are easier to play on two consecutive strings.
if all you use is position playing, there are ideas you'll probably never end up playing.
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That's why he's called Mr. B.... man, gotta love that.
Just a simple question... what are the fingerings for single string applications. I have mine already worked out... just wondering what others use...
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I think Tiny also played with Screamin' Jay Hawkins. Dave Rubin devotes a section to Tiny Grimes in his book Birth of the Groove: R and B, Soul and Funk Guitar: 1945-1965 (Inside the Blues). Remarkable player. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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What's interesting about your observation, Paul is that most people now play octaves as Wes did but earlier players such as Tal Farlow and Chuck Wayne often did play them in position. For example, a midrange octave 'A' would be played at the 7th fret, 4th string doubled with 5th fret, 1st string rather than 10th fret, 2nd string. Originally Posted by pkirk
Peter Bernstein is another non-positional player. I asked him about this recently expecting Wes to be the point of reference. Instead, Pete mentioned lessons with Gene Bertoncini where he was advised to spend a chunk of practise time working scales and lines up one string.
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Yeah, I used to try to frame octaves that way, but never could get fluid with it. Originally Posted by PMB
Incidentally, practicing/playing in octaves is another thing that exercises similar skills as playing up and down a single (or an adjacent pair of) string. And the value of this kind of practice can be summed up in one word:Wes!
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I'm finding the back-and-forth discussion on this thread to be interesting, and even confusing at times.
FWIW, the single-string idea is an exercise, and like all exercises -- be they melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, etc. -- they typically serve one or more purposes, i.e., right/left hand technique, phrasing, knowing the neck, ear training, etc etc ad nauseam. Few, if any, exercises are meant as being "the" way to play an actual solo; for example, you wouldn't play an entire solo using ascending-descending scales by skipping 3rds (1-3-2-4-3-5, etc) because it would be boring -- for you and the listener! Practicing scales by skipping 3rds, however, is a great exercise that teaches technique, ear training, etc., and throwing in some consecutive 3rds in a solo can sound great, and can lead you to other interesting ideas in a solo, too.
There are a lot of great exercises out there -- try some out!
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well, i wouldn't necessarily play a whole solo on one string. but there are definitely certain lines that i would play on one string.
take a standard four note scale sequence (for a C major scale: C B A G, B A G F, A G F E, etc... ) very easy to play on a horn or keyboard, but can be tricky to play on guitar at high speeds because of all the string-switching.
but counter-intuitively, many people find it easier to play on just one string. this is a trick that was probably most used by Yngwie Malmsteen (can't say i'm a fan of the music, but a good idea is a good idea wherever it comes from). and while ol' Yngwie picks every note, you can use various slurs with this (slides, hammer/pull offs) and get some very neat horn-like phrasing.
there are also certain ideas that are much easier to play on two strings, particularly if you're building a solo using a three or four note motif that you're moving around.
best example of this i can think of is Herbie Hancock's solo on Wayne Shorter's "Witchhunt." the whole first part of his solo is built on a 3-note motif that he moves around the instrument, varying the rhythm and starting pitch. playing these sorts of ideas in position on guitar would be a bear, but it's much easier to see on two consecutive strings.
it's impossible for me to know what was going on in the mind of Mick Goodrick and Pat Metheny when they were playing around with this stuff. but i do know that:
- Pat has talked about what a big influence Herbie Hancock's playing was
- when asked to choose some solos that had a formative impact on his playing, the first thing Pat played was Paul Bley's famous "All the Things You Are" solo from the Sonny/Coleman Hawkins session
- Mick Goodrick has listed Chick Corea's "Now He Sings/Now He Sobs" as one of his favorite recordings
all those players used motivic development, whether they're three-note cells or pentatonic ideas, and move them around the instrument in unpredicatable ways to develop coherence in a solo, stretch the tonality of a tune, and create some very interesting lines that still work within the context of chord changes
my guess is that both Mick and Pat realized that in order to catch up with where horn and piano players were going at the time, it required approaching the guitar from a different angle. and one string or two string playing is a very comfortable way to play many of these ideas
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I have that Chick Corea album in my record collection which is collecting dust. But a great album.
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Now He Sings, Now He Sobs - one of my favorite all time albums. I probably listen to a track or two from that record every week or two. Never collects dust here.
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Relating the story of some who thought he was trying to say "Play only on one string" or "That's not the way jazz guitar is played", Mick sighed. "That's why I said you must combine approaches, that's what the Realm of The Electric Ice Skating Rink is about."
There were two schools of thought, Bill Leavitt was a position player, and his teachings reflected that, and Andy Capinegra had a linear approach. Mick found the wisdom of both approaches and always advocates using all resources available. There does, however seem to be a heavy leaning towards position playing, especially in guitar. ' a perceived oversight concerning linear playing which he addressed in Advancing Guitarist. "The guitar is like a trombone when you play along the string. You can stop along the way and you've got a harmonic instrument at every point kinda like a trobone player has overtones at points along the travel of the slide. You can really see the relationships of harmonic possibility when you play along the string."
Just wanted to share his thoughts on the matter, for what it's worth.
David
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Charlie Byrd was another player advocating learning one string playing.
Look up his method book here:
Charlie Byrd's Melodic Method for Guitar
If I remember correctly, he said that the students that were taught this way (by him and a friend of him) really had to struggle with the unusual fingerings at first. But they had much less trouble when it came to improvising.
Greets
Christoph
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No one is suggesting that Goodrick advocates playing complex melodies on one string in performance. What I assume he addresses is the benefit for beginner and late beginner level guitarists to work on their tone and technique. To suggest that there is some additional benefit to "exploring the melodic possibilities of playing one string" for anyone beyond late beginner stages of development borders on the absurd. Positional playing amplifies your options and is not incompatible with more ample movement on the fret board up or down when the melodic line and tone desired warrant. What is essential is to know the fret board cold and the ability to play what you hear as well as the experience and talent to express something worth hearing.
Last edited by targuit; 06-12-2014 at 08:55 AM.
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Think of what one string playing can do just for ear training...you take the element of needing to be aware of the interval between strings out--now it's just, "does the melody you hear go up or down? How much?"
Then two strings, and you become aware of that interval...you take the same melody and find it on two strings. Play it on one, play it on two. Then you try to hear a melody on two strings...
I'm a convert. I think it's a brilliant way to explore the melodic possibilities of the instrument and to get out of patterns and recall...
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Since it's so "absurd" then I can assume you haven't tried it, and if you haven't tried it how can you repeatedly knock it? Originally Posted by targuit
Anyway, why even make assumptions? Why not get/borrow the book and read it yourself? That way you can at least make marginally informed comments rather than repeatedly bloviating the same pablum over and over on something you clearly don't understand.
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Playing on one string or limiting yourself in other ways helps develop the ears, because you are no longer relying on default muscle memory and already-explored licks/melodies. It forces you into new terrain. Then when you take out the limitation, you find that your hearing is a bit more freed-up. But arguing about something that you have not yet tried is a bit pointless. It becomes more about just trying to rationally justify why something can or cannot work. Originally Posted by targuit
Last edited by srlank; 06-12-2014 at 09:56 AM.
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Wow! Originally Posted by targuit
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Pretty good single string playing for a late beginner level musician.
Positions are a coalition of single strings.
Exercises of limitation teaches us to do more with less which adds up exponentially when full resources are restored.
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Nobody needs to see a list of credentials, we all know you have strong opinions based on your personal experience. However, here, with this book, you admit no experience. So why call it absurd?
Mick's book is entitled "The Advancing Guitarist," not "The Beginning Guitarist." Does an exercise in looking at the instrument differently presuppose you DON'T know the intervals?
What if, perhaps this book was written for the player who DOES know the intervals and is looking for a new way of looking at things. Maybe they're a damn good position player. They can run changes, play some cool stuff. But the're hitting a wall melodically.
Sometimes the answer is a step behind where you're at, not ahead.
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