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I gotta push back here...does the track actually teach you to hear it in your head? Or does playing basic lines strongly accenting chord tones do it. Does playing the chord progression over and over do it?
Originally Posted by princeplanet
I think it's absolutely critical to learn how to play "square," set a metronome and play lines where you can hear every chord change. You're not going to play that way all the time in real playing situations, but it teaches you to hear the progression in your lines...that way when you wanna hammer home a chord hard, you can.
Now, I do like the idea of getting some tracks on your mp3 player or whatever, plugging it in the car, and singing lines over the harmony...that's a great way to internalize it.
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10-29-2014 02:54 PM
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Prince - I appreciate that there was an edit that did not go through, but truth is that your friend's tune is NOT musical. As played in your head, on a guitar, on a piano or with a symphony orchestra. And I knew that before I played on the guitar, because I can 'hear it' in my head, and that sequence is gibberish. The chords as notated don't even make sense. Sorry to be blunt, but if you are not convinced, put the sequence into BIAB and let it take a crack at it.
If you want to create a mental exercise, at least establish a key and notate the chords properly.
Jay
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They're just ii V's that resolve up a half step higher than expected. What's not musical about that? Happens all the time. Originally Posted by targuit
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I agree that if you can do this you KNOW the song. Originally Posted by pkirk
It is always enlightening how I can play great with irealb, but trying something like this causes me to fall apart really quickly.
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The iReal app on the iphone has been of tremendous help for me. Also, many jazz books come with backing tracks, those are the ones I usually purchase, rather than books with no CD. Depends of course. But seriously check out the iReal app if you have access to that sort of thing.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Jeff, try playing it. I'm assuming that the key is Bm. That "progression" sounds disjointed. Non musical, even if were intended to be free jazz or a bit outside. It is just 'bad'.
If you play the progression and disagree, explain how it makes sense. Those chords just do not go together, certainly not as notated, especially the part that continues after the first two, which are coherent.
Jay
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Warne Marsh advocated practicing lines in single time (i.e. eighth notes) at a slow click (40-60bpm) over a standard tune. No backing track. You would be working be ear and instinct, but at this tempo you have plenty of time.
Obviously getting the right chords for the right amount of beats is a challenge when you start on a new tune.
After a few months of doing this the metronome could be left off, once the student got the feel of the tempo.
This is probably one of the best things I have done. I find it takes a lot of concentration.
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Sounds fine to me, try re-voicing them... Anyhow the point was made. It gets down to our own useage. I get the point that y'all making that once a tune is in your head it's better to switch the thing off, because you are forced to be aware of where you are. But I find myself either trying difficult things against simple backings, or learning new pieces all the time but trying to play simply while ingraining. Originally Posted by targuit
Always seem to be grappling with the unfamiliar, be they line ideas or song ideas, either way BIAB helps me get familiar. Once I'm familiar I could turn it off, but I don't seem to keep playing something once I've become familiar! I move on to something else... Yup, I'm "missing the whole point of playing Jazz" according to many
which is to bring many tunes to the gig. But I'm really more interested in playing original material, based on what I glean from my practice.
Point taken though, that even for established original tunes, the machine doesn't need to be turned on to practice lines against it.... quite timely too, it's getting to the point of addiction!
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Another difficult exercise - sing a solo line through a standard without accompaniment. This is something great to work on.
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I'm new to Jazz but old to rock and blues. Learning a piece from sheet music never gave me how the music was supposed to feel/sound, just the mechanics of the tune. Playing with the record or now backing track gives life to the piece.
Especially with Jazz which is like a learning a whole new language. One can work out the words and put together sentences, but hearing it spoken is what helps to build a mental picture of how it is supposed to sound.
For moi anyway.
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You want a little test of your ability to hear or sing a credible melody over a credible progression? I give you this - the key is Eb. The first measure is the triplet quarter notes of the melody - a hint. Watch the flats. A moderate tempo love song.
/gab/ Fm9 / Bb13 / EbM7 - Fm7 / Gm7 - Gbdim7 / Fm7 / Bb7 /
/ Eb6 -Fm7 / Gm7b5 - C7b5 / Fm7 / Bb7alt / EbM7 - Fm7 / Gm7 - Gbdim7 /..../.... 'shelter from the storm, a cozy fire..."
In the measures above, where you have two chords separated by - each block chord is a half note in duration. The song is in 4/4.
What you will notice is that the chords cycle with some musical logic, so you hopefully can not only outline the chord tones with your mind and voice, but maybe guess the tune from the progression. I wish you luck.
JayLast edited by targuit; 10-30-2014 at 09:28 AM.
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I tried to "sing" those chords in my head, they're almost all common to RC in Eb, so I could kinda hear it but got stuck on the Gm7b5... very annoying cos I can hear the G min easy, why couldn't I just lower the 5th in my head? grrr... Originally Posted by targuit
Of course, picking up an instrument and playing through a coupla times soon trained my ear to hear it, and yeah, maybe you wouldn't really need BIAB to shed ideas against it, But that's because it's predictable functional harmony with no change of key. It took me ages to fully hear something like ATTYA in my head because of the 5 keys, but I still like to shed lines against BIAB with that one because I still can't predict the effect of certain dissonances I like to work on...
Oh, I have no idea of the tune btw, but I'm sure someone here will guess it soon enough!
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I dropped a lot of hints! Prince - sorry I sounded so negative about that chord progression you set up initially. I'm still puzzled as to the key. But perhaps I just cannot hear it in my mind and I have labored mightily to play the chords even as simple arpeggios - at least for me it does not gel, whether on guitar or keys. One thing that comes with experience is a kind of aural visualization (mixed metaphor) of the progression, but if it is not very "logical" musically, then it becomes harder by far.
jay
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I’ve been gone for a long while, but here’s something I had posted a some time ago that I prefer far more than using backing tracks. I call it 'fronting tracks' because it’s sort of reverse of what most of us do. I use a loop pedal and record my single line first, then I let it loop and comp over my solo. This forces me to outline the changes and avoid ‘skating’ over them or always relying on accompaniment. On this video I just do one chorus, but usually I will record multiple choruses of unaccompanied single-line and then comp for many repetitions for whatever tune I’m working on. I find that as my comping improves on the tune I'm working on, my single line improves as well, as I start to see the different harmonic possibilities. Doing it the other way, recording just one chorus of a backing track and looping, them jamming over it, did not really allow me to work on your comping as much. When I started doing this a few years ago, it made a huge difference. If you don’t have a looper, another thing to try is recording yourself playing over a backing track on a separate track and the mute the backing track on the playback so only your solo is heard – that can reveal a lot of areas of opportunity.
Paul
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Genius! I'm trying this tonight! Originally Posted by PaulD
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In another thread about 2-5 subs, I posted the below matrix which I've been fooling around with. Basically any chord in the left column can proceed to any chord in the right. Also, it can sound cool to just use 2 chords from the left column or 2 from the right... Obviously one of the 3 options is just the TT sub. But not included in the matrix are 2 other "subs" I know of, the m6th - Bbm7 - Eb7. And another one that sounds cool (to me at least) is the M7th - Dbm7 - Gb7 - that's why I chose that example (my friend likes it too!). I'd be interested to know if you find any of these as objectionable to your ears as the M7th "sub" Originally Posted by targuit
If you find smooth voicings, it's a lot of fun!
Min 3rd MATRIX
Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)Last edited by princeplanet; 10-31-2014 at 05:09 AM.
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Paul - Listened to your video above and the rest of your channel videos on YouTube. Simply the best I've heard. Love your style. Flawless. Creative.
I noted reading the comments on many of your videos that you say you are not a professional musician, though many would kill to have your chops and finesse. May I inquire about your "musical history"? I ask because you clearly have the chops - world class in my opinion. And I wonder what you do for a day job. If you recorded a CD, I would buy it in a nano second. Frankly, you deserve to be recorded with some class musicians. Seriously.
Lastly, I am curious about what the music means to you. How you work on your repertoire. I hear some backing tracks in your videos and I'd like to know what equipment you use besides a looper on occasion. I use Sibelius to create my library of standards and my original music. I spend a couple of hours a night. My passion, too.
JayLast edited by targuit; 10-31-2014 at 04:49 AM.
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Prince - to be honest, I can't be bothered with all the theoretical garbage about subs and CST and the like, thought I know theory. I use my ears. Listen to Paul Di Lorenzo's videos on YT. That is what a musician plays. Despite all the discourse on this site, interesting as it may be, in the end you close your eyes, open your ears and your heart, and sing with your instrument. The rest is pretty irrelevant.
Jay
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That's OK, I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure, an' all that.... Originally Posted by targuit
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I agree he's good. neat and tidy, accomplished. But still sounds a little canned, a bit worked out.... which probably means he put some, yes, theoretical thought into it. Maybe he can answer for himself, and tell us what his strategies are.. Originally Posted by targuit
BTW, the "canned" thing is not meant to be a put down, I'm sounding pretty canned myself, just saying that because they way you described it I was expecting to hear the Sonny Rollins of Jazz guitar or something!
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Jay, thanks for the nice words! I've sent you a PM.
Ha!...I’m definitely not the Sonny Rollins of guitar by any stretch of the imagination, I just like playing tunes on the guitar and posted the ‘fronting tracks’ video because I thought it related to the topic of this thread. Most of my other YT videos were done prior, using backing tracks made with BIAB. So sounding ‘canned’ might be, in at least a small way, one of the side-effects of using backing tracks since there’s nothing spontaneous or too dangerous to respond to. My approach is probably the same as that of many other amateur jazzers…over the years, I’ve learned hundreds of tunes, both the harmony & melodies, recycled countless lines from many of my favorite players, internalized them, and analyzed the structure to the point where I can usually call on and modify them real time to (hopefully) fit the context. I’ve also come up with many of my own lines. I don’t have anywhere near the vocabulary of real jazz musicians, but I keep slowly progressing and as I mentioned, I just like playing tunes on the guitar Originally Posted by princeplanet
...Maybe he can answer for himself, and tell us what his strategies are..
BTW, the "canned" thing is not meant to be a put down, I'm sounding pretty canned myself, just saying that because they way you described it I was expecting to hear the Sonny Rollins of Jazz guitar or something!
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Regards,
PaulLast edited by PaulD; 10-31-2014 at 11:59 AM.
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Personally I like using a looper for practice for a number of reasons:
1) I want to be more than just a soloist, and using a looper requires me to hear what kind of comping that I am providing... So it pushes me to be a better backing artist too
2) A backing track is almost tooooo consistent. Meaning that I like to try playing over a variety of rhythms and or voicing's for the same song. Which helps me be a better musician, but really helps me be more prepared to play with different people. I want to be able to fit in with whoever I end up jamming, gigging or sitting in with. And a backing track really only helps me get comfortable with that specific arrangement, groove and voicing. It can be fun and helpful to play along with the backing track, but the looper still just gives me more to work with, and pushes me farther.
3) Some times I really just want to lock into a section of a song, and I like being able to just quickly come up with a nice comping pattern, lay it down in the looper, and just play with no real interaction or computer or music player in front of me. Just me, my guitar and a simple two button pedal sometimes is what I need to stay focused and really get into what I'm doing. My computer tends to distract me at times, and gets me thinking about recording or searching for different versions on YouTube. And that's all fine, but sometimes I just need to get away from all that when I'm practicing or working through something.
*I certainly do use things like iReal or backing tracks, but I tend to really get the most out of my practice time when it's just me, a guitar and a looper.
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Appreciate the candour. Whatever you're doing is working well, and is an inspiration for us all to work a little harder. Cheers! Originally Posted by PaulD
Jay, thanks for the nice words! I've sent you a PM.
Ha!...I’m definitely not the Sonny Rollins of guitar by any stretch of the imagination, I just like playing tunes on the guitar and posted the ‘fronting tracks’ video because I thought it related to the topic of this thread. Most of my other YT videos were done prior, using backing tracks made with BIAB. So sounding ‘canned’ might be, in at least a small way, one of the side-effects of using backing tracks since there’s nothing spontaneous or too dangerous to respond to. My approach is probably the same as that of many other amateur jazzers…over the years, I’ve learned hundreds of tunes, both the harmony & melodies, recycled countless lines from many of my favorite players, internalized them, and analyzed the structure to the point where I can usually call on and modify them real time to (hopefully) fit the context. I’ve also come up with many of my own lines. I don’t have anywhere near the vocabulary of real jazz musicians, but I keep slowly progressing and as I mentioned, I just like playing tunes on the guitar.
Regards,
Paul
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I didn't know Sonny Rollins played guitar! Originally Posted by PaulD
Jay, thanks for the nice words! I've sent you a PM.
Ha!...I’m definitely not the Sonny Rollins of guitar by any stretch of the imagination, I just like playing tunes on the guitar and posted the ‘fronting tracks’ video because I thought it related to the topic of this thread. Most of my other YT videos were done prior, using backing tracks made with BIAB. So sounding ‘canned’ might be, in at least a small way, one of the side-effects of using backing tracks since there’s nothing spontaneous or too dangerous to respond to. My approach is probably the same as that of many other amateur jazzers…over the years, I’ve learned hundreds of tunes, both the harmony & melodies, recycled countless lines from many of my favorite players, internalized them, and analyzed the structure to the point where I can usually call on and modify them real time to (hopefully) fit the context. I’ve also come up with many of my own lines. I don’t have anywhere near the vocabulary of real jazz musicians, but I keep slowly progressing and as I mentioned, I just like playing tunes on the guitar.
Regards,
Paul
Paul scores another 3-pointer with his modesty, a mark of a master. I've been playing some fifty years and I know what improvisational skill he demonstrates across a variety of tunes and tempos. Some of the skilled guitarists on YT universally laud him for his timing and inventiveness. Praise from peers speaks for itself.
I have to laugh that Paul resorted to using BIAB, probably because Jack DeJohnette, Wayne Shorter, and Herbie were otherwise engaged when he films his videos. What alternative can you do to create a quartet or trio or whatever arrangement? You can write it out yourself as I do with Sibelius. Is it possible to transform Sibelius tracks or a looper into a human being? Not yet. I'm working on the hologram version. But seriously, what is all this about the purity of playing solo or not at all? For composers, the ability to write multi-voiced arrangements is a good thing. The only thing better is having DeJohnette, Shorter, and Hancock over for dinner and asking them to bring their instruments with them.
I don't come up with lines. I just play! That is the "improvisation" thing. But to put down a bass line (no, it won't vary spontaneously) and percussion to keep the tempo (a click works against the expression factor in a live band performance) and maybe a piano part to allow you to solo beyond the melody is some kind of compromise? It's the limits of technology. And money. Deal with it.
Jay
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Here's a pretty amazing version of Metheny playing ATTYA with just metronome.
In his other video teaching a student, he said he can hear every note over every chord. I believe it seeing this video. He has all the harmony in his head and doesn't need a backing track.
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