Practicing Lines - Do you need a backing track of some sort?

[Gramps]

It is undoubtedly due to my lack of skills but I often lay down a track to practice new (to me) harmonic ideas. I'm still training my ears to sounds that most of you probably find common place.

I use a looper for quick practice tracks.

[Phil in London]

Human perception of time and therefore music is linear - you can't several voices at at time - just one. Skipping between several voices in music is customary. Try listening to a Bach fugue say and hearing all the voices at the same time. I guarantee you won't be able to

I would challenge that statement. Coming from keyboards, I can say that when you play counterpuntal music with two hands, one can certainly 'hear' at least 3 voice fugues (thoroughly), and potentially even 4. For 5 voice fugues, one will tend to lose it, and often the voicings there will have mainly chordal, rather than linear character.

I am not writing this because I want to say I am any good in this, its just my experience, from some 40y of study.

[Scott Jones]

I think backing tracks can be good as part of an overall toolbox of practice approaches. Nothing beats playing with live players, but I'd say use everything at your disposal to improve.

[christianm77]

I would challenge that statement. Coming from keyboards, I can say that when you play counterpuntal music with two hands, one can certainly 'hear' at least 3 voice fugues (thoroughly), and potentially even 4. For 5 voice fugues, one will tend to lose it, and often the voicings there will have mainly chordal, rather than linear character.

I am not writing this because I want to say I am any good in this, its just my experience, from some 40y of study.

40 yrs of study is not something I can claim to have.... :-)

But I do think that it reflects on the way the human ear works that contrapuntal music is organised the way it is - voices imitating each other, call and response in different voices, continual shifting of attention from one voice to another.

Which reflects the way jazz is structured more than melody + accompaniment, say.

[christianm77]

I think backing tracks can be good as part of an overall toolbox of practice approaches. Nothing beats playing with live players, but I'd say use everything at your disposal to improve.

Yeah, I'd agree, don't get stuck in one thing or another.

[Phil in London]

40 yrs of study is not something I can claim to have.... :-)

But I do think that it reflects on the way the human ear works that contrapuntal music is organised the way it is - voices imitating each other, call and response in different voices, continual shifting of attention from one voice to another.

Which reflects the way jazz is structured more than melody + accompaniment, say.

as this is a bit off the thread, I send you a PM with my response :-)

[henryrobinett]

Backing tracks can definitely be helpful. Especially with respect to time and phrasing. But I just find relying on them for changes can be a crutch that's less helpful than it would seem. You've got to learn the neck and not have it be a guessing game or ear skating festival. SEE all the changes all across the entire neck. Play so you can hear the changes without the back drop of changes. And that means substitutes too.

[PaulCastelluzzo]

Heres a video of me using a backing track. I usually DONT, Its much better to play with a metronome on 2 and 4 or whatever other combination you can brew ha but with a backing track you immediately are relying on something to save you when you crash and burn, with a metronome you supply all aspects of MUSIC, Melody, Harmony, Rhythm... When you can do that, tastefully, and in TIME, you've reached good level.

I like to think of backing tracks as the Easy way out, but also a fun way to practice lines. I would not only use backing tracks though. Challenge your self . Its the only way to reach the point you want to get to. I cannot stress that enough. Im no monster, but I've seen improvements just by sitting down and grinding that one thing that we all have that blocks us from our fretboard, technique, fluidity, etc. Just grind that one thing out, and you will be a better player, musician, and happier person.

Those are my Two Scents!

19 Year Old Guitarist from San Diego

Paul Castelluzzo

[AlsoRan]

Old thread, I know but I had to share these thoughts after reading some comments in the current BIAB thread.

I learned Grant Green's recorded verions of "I'll Remember April" note-for-note. I happily played it at speed (around 185 bpm or so) with my metronome.

Well, when I had a little moment to crank up the amp and mini-PA system in my house, I played the Hal Leonard backing track for the song and had a rude awakening. I could not play with the play-along backing track at that speed. I kept getting lost. I really needed that constant 1/4 note click from the metronome.

That was months ago, and I recently tried to use the backing track again and did much better.

So at least in my case, I have found out that playing with the backing track was a more advanced skill than just playing to that steady metronome beat.

Once I have learned to play with the backing track, and its more freely playing rhythm section, I feel I will be that much closer to being able to keep good time with a real band, and a step farther along in my skills that I would be playing with a metronome.

By the way, I do realize that I need to vary the metronome beat and not just leave it in straight quarter notes to be able to get the most out of it. I will play the song today with the metronome at 94 and see how well I can keep time.

I fell into the trap of just using the metronome at one speed instead of varying it. I won't fall into that trap again.

[docbop]

We don't realize how much leeway we give ourselves when unaccompanied. Backing tracks or loopers anything that going to keep the changes where their suppose to be helps keep us honest.

[danwaineo]

Here are some observations from a lesson I had yesterday. My teacher plays bass (and some piano).

It's hard for me to play with only a bass player. This is because I'm missing much of the harmonic information for many songs. If the bass player is playing something simple like a blues, it is much easier. I think this is because I have internalized the harmony.

With a more harmonically advanced and/or unusual song it is much more difficult. In addition to hearing the harmony internally, I also have to supply much of the harmony in solos. This means playing a lot more thirds and sevenths than I might otherwise.

Playing with only a bass player requires much more mastery of the material. Playing with only a metronome requires even more mastery, because now you supply all of the harmony. Playing by yourself in time is the hardest thing there is. Since you have no time and no harmonic feedback.

Personally I really don't like chord melody from guitar players, because the time is the first thing to go. I know they all claim "artistic license", but really I don't think most of them couldn't play these things it time if they wanted to.

[monkmiles]

I've been mostly a no backing track line practicer. But these days I think it helps me in order to really get a line down. Which is why I'm going to get a looper pedal in addition to using loops of irealbook.

Keep in mind, with many programs like biab and irealbook, you can adjust the instruments so its not as full.

[princeplanet]

Interesting thoughts..... So, can someone here who feels very strongly that backing tracks are harmful if used excessively, offer, say, three main reasons why this is so?

[pkirk]

Interesting thoughts..... So, can someone here who feels very strongly that backing tracks are harmful if used excessively, offer, say, three main reasons why this is so?

I'll take a crack at it:

1. you can float over the changes, so doesn't strengthen your harmonic playing
2. you can float over the time, so so doesn't strengthen your time (also the time is pretty explicit on most of the tracks)
3. No interaction with other players

number 3 is of course the hardest thing to do while practicing, and one of the main things that make jazz great. playing along with recordings helps a bit.

Really the main reason for me is that it's lazy. I usually use backing tracks as a "palate cleanser" in between shedding
stuff that needs concentration, or a chops maintainer when I'm too lazy to practice for real.

[princeplanet]

I'll take a crack at it:

1. you can float over the changes, so doesn't strengthen your harmonic playing
2. you can float over the time, so so doesn't strengthen your time (also the time is pretty explicit on most of the tracks)
3. No interaction with other players

number 3 is of course the hardest thing to do while practicing, and one of the main things that make jazz great. playing along with recordings helps a bit.

Really the main reason for me is that it's lazy. I usually use backing tracks as a "palate cleanser" in between shedding
stuff that needs concentration, or a chops maintainer when I'm too lazy to practice for real.

Cheers. In replying, let's throw out #3 as playing with a metronome ain't gonna help you in that regard either

As for floating, or being "lazy", I don't get it. BIAB kicks my ass, not as hard as a real band, but harder than a metronome. I find I get lazy with a metronome! Playing lines that I think are spelling out things the way I'd like, only to find little details that are not sounding right when I play against backing. Things like delayed resolutions or anticipations, they make more sense with backing, trying sub ideas, messing with enclosures and appogiaturas etc. All these are exposed against backing. Timing? BIAB- even with real tracks doesn't groove like a real band, but it sure as hell grooves harder than a metronome on 2 and 4!

True that without backing your lines lean harder on the "butter notes" (7ths and 3rds)- but I'm trying to get past that now and really hear extensions and alterations, side slipping etc. Much harder to "hear" that without backing. Fine if you're very adept at hearing any complex changes you want, clearly in your head, but let's face it, most of us can't, yet.... I think it's important to hear the backing in our heads, we all have to agree with that, absolutely no question - but BIAB is how I get it stuck in my head! And yep, I know that's not how the greats did it, but if BIAB was around when Dexter Gordon was honing his chops, I refuse to believe it could have made him worse at playing...

But this thread is just warming up, maybe I'll be convinced by the end of it ....

[targuit]

First, like most musicians, I often play chord melody style solo in practice, sometimes just single note style. So yes, playing solo is also good. But I would like to offer some perspectives on the benefits of playing along with 'backup tracks', specifically those which I write or essentially play in on Sibelius to create midi files.

- I find that in composing, playing against even a bass line alone is stimulating to creating melodies and harmonies. The process happens spontaneously and the two 'counter melodies' if you will inspire or feed off the other. I write at the piano as well, so the benefits of the keyboard work compliments the guitar playing, another form of synergy. By creating my own backup tracks with Sibelius, I can replay melodies and solos over and over to hone complementary lead lines, for example. And I am not beholden entirely to some other musicians interpretations. I am forced to recreate my own phrases, even if I am simply transcribing a known jazz tune. In that case I am not 'improvising' but rather interpreting. But having to play or write the ideas and music I hear in my head reinforces that skill that is at the base of improvisation and "spontaneous" creativity. Lastly, working with the compositional tools on the computer which have replaced the traditional paper music sheets and pen gives me much greater flexibility and speed, such as the ability to visualize and record as midi file and notation whatever 'solo' music I can dream up and execute on my synth access guitar.

Of course, one can simply treat these midi files and notation as 'backup tracks', ignoring the related benefits of working with the notation. In other words, these tracks that I create help me master the melodic and harmonic tools that are essential for simply playing your instrument to the best of your ability. It is hard to put into words, but I feel that my solo chord melody playing benefits enormously from all this synergy.

And finally, obviously playing with other good musicians is more human and interactive an experience. But start with the first problem - where do I find excellent musicians to play with at three o'clock in the morning who are at my beck and call, sober, with no personality quirks and egos? Frankly, many amateur musicians are just not up to the skill levels that I would prefer to play with.

Jay

[dingusmingus]

Fine if you're very adept at hearing any complex changes you want, clearly in your head, but let's face it, most of us can't, yet.... I think it's important to hear the backing in our heads, we all have to agree with that, absolutely no question - but BIAB is how I get it stuck in my head!

I think you've hit on something here: it seems the advantage of using or not using backing tracks may change as one gets more developed.

Perhaps something along these lines:
1. Novice: A novice may ignore rhythmic and harmonic tension with the backing tracks, and might be better off with at least some practice with just a metronome.
2. Intermediate: This player will hear and adjust to the backing tracks, and this form of practice will help him or her develop good ears for rhythm and melody/harmony. Without the tracks, the player may not hear that he or she is not really making the changes.
3. Advanced: This player hears the changes and the time well already, and backing tracks may make things too easy, since the player can just float over things.

I'm somewhere between 1 and 2, and I do some forms of both practice.

At a minimum, it seems both forms of practice have something to recommend them, depending on where one is and what one is working on.

[princeplanet]

1. Novice: A novice may ignore rhythmic and harmonic tension with the backing tracks, and might be better off with at least some practice with just a metronome.
2. Intermediate: This player will hear and adjust to the backing tracks, and this form of practice will help him or her develop good ears for rhythm and melody/harmony. Without the tracks, the player may not hear that he or she is not really making the changes.
3. Advanced: This player hears the changes and the time well already, and backing tracks may make things too easy, since the player can just float over things.

I see myself as intermediate as well (funny how most of us do!)- but when I wonder what "advanced" ears are like, I imagine (maybe you do too) that they could sing arpeggios (without backing) to, say something like:

Dbm7b5 - Gb7b9b13 - Cmaj7#11 - Abm11 - D7#9 - Gm#7 etc

I know folks who can do this, but not many! In other words, there aren't many advanced ears out there, and probably less than a handful (if that) on this forum. Now if you can hear in your head those 6 chords (and thats only 3 or 4 bars) so well that you can immediately tell that a double approach you were thinking to that #11 won't sound so good, then yeah, you don't need no stinking backing track!

As for the rest of us, we'd need to play to either a recording of those chords, or a backing track to really know how our lines will work out.

So, I wonder how many of the nay sayers think their ears are too advanced to need backing tracks? If all of them post videos of themselves singing the above arpeggios without practicing them first, then I'm more cloth eared than I thought I was and clearly need more time on the ol' solfeggio!

But if not, then I say backing tracks are friend not foe...

[targuit]

"Dbm7b5 - Gb7b9b13 - Cmaj7#11 - Abm11 - D7#9 - Gm#7 etc" - Prince, gotta tell ya, if it is hard to "hear" that progression you posted, there is a damn good reason. I'm sitting here with a guitar in hand, and that chord progression does not make harmonic sense. And therefore, being unharmonious and essentially not 'musical', it is like trying to sing nonsense lyrics out of tune. That is hard to do. BTW, the first two chords were fine, but the Cmaj7. et al ...was not.

The only reasonable way that progression would sound "musical " is if the C#m7b5 - F#7b9 - was treated as in the key of Bm : Bm7 - E7b9 .... I'm not even going to deal with "Cmaj7#11 - Abm11 - D7#9 - Gm#7".

If you wish to maintain that the progression you cited makes musical sense as derived from a standard or just sounds good, please tell us what the tune is.

Jay

[dingusmingus]

So, I wonder how many of the nay sayers think their ears are too advanced to need backing tracks? If all of them post videos of themselves singing the above arpeggios without practicing them first, then I'm more cloth eared than I thought I was and clearly need more time on the ol' solfeggio!

But if not, then I say backing tracks are friend not foe...

I agree that they can be friend--I use them myself! (irealB) But I would think people who don't use them also have effective practice regimes. I wouldn't say anyone needs to use them.

And to be clear, I was the one speculating that it is the more advanced players (like Henry) who may not find them useful. I don't think any of the naysayers are themselves making the claim that they are too advanced.

Anyway, something to chew on. I'll continue doing some of each.

[princeplanet]

"Dbm7b5 - Gb7b9b13 - Cmaj7#11 - Abm11 - D7#9 - Gm#7 etc" - Prince, gotta tell ya, if it is hard to "hear" that progression you posted, there is a damn good reason. I'm sitting here with a guitar in hand, and that chord progression does not make harmonic sense. And therefore, being unharmonious and essentially not 'musical', it is like trying to sing nonsense lyrics out of tune. That is hard to do. BTW, the first two chords were fine, but the Cmaj7. et al ...was not.

The only reasonable way that progression would sound "musical " is if the C#m7b5 - F#7b9 - was treated as in the key of Bm : Bm7 - E7b9 .... I'm not even going to deal with "Cmaj7#11 - Abm11 - D7#9 - Gm#7".

If you wish to maintain that the progression you cited makes musical sense as derived from a standard or just sounds good, please tell us what the tune is.

Jay

Damn, my edit didn't get through, it should be Dbm7b5 - Gb7b9b13 - Cmaj7#11 - Abm11 - Db7b9 - GM7 - it's just a coupla 2-5-1's that resolve up a half step higher. (I misread the piano score- it's a friend's piece, hardly a standard!). It's not an uncommon thing. Point is, if you cant sing every note of each arp, you can't hear it in your head. So how you gonna work on your lines without hearing it another way (backing tracks)?

[danwaineo]

I think the goal is to eventually be able to hear it in your head. I think it is helpful to practice without a backing track. I can know a song well enough to play with a backing track. I have to know it much better to play without one.

One exercise I do all the time is turn off the piano in irealb. I think it helps me to listen closer and to know the harmony better.

[princeplanet]

With simple tunes (standards), sure, but even there, I find they get burned into my scone faster after I shed them with BIAB.

[pkirk]

Cheers. In replying, let's throw out #3 as playing with a metronome ain't gonna help you in that regard either

As for floating, or being "lazy", I don't get it. BIAB kicks my ass, not as hard as a real band, but harder than a metronome. I find I get lazy with a metronome! Playing lines that I think are spelling out things the way I'd like, only to find little details that are not sounding right when I play against backing. Things like delayed resolutions or anticipations, they make more sense with backing, trying sub ideas, messing with enclosures and appogiaturas etc. All these are exposed against backing. Timing? BIAB- even with real tracks doesn't groove like a real band, but it sure as hell grooves harder than a metronome on 2 and 4!

True that without backing your lines lean harder on the "butter notes" (7ths and 3rds)- but I'm trying to get past that now and really hear extensions and alterations, side slipping etc. Much harder to "hear" that without backing. Fine if you're very adept at hearing any complex changes you want, clearly in your head, but let's face it, most of us can't, yet.... I think it's important to hear the backing in our heads, we all have to agree with that, absolutely no question - but BIAB is how I get it stuck in my head! And yep, I know that's not how the greats did it, but if BIAB was around when Dexter Gordon was honing his chops, I refuse to believe it could have made him worse at playing...

But this thread is just warming up, maybe I'll be convinced by the end of it ....

I don't really want to convince you, because I don;t feel that strongly... just my experience: I used to practice with BIAB a lot. But as the years went by, I relalized two things first, I rush, and secondly, my phrases never seem to end strongly, they basically fizzle out. So I've been focused on time and being explicit more than other things for a while. What struck home for me recently was taking a lesson with Dave stryker, I told him my time was my biggest concern, so he said "play a chorus single line, unaccompanied" and my suckitude shone through brightly. Also, in his gigs he always does a "chorus unaccompanied with the band" which sounds great, killer when the rhythm section comes in at the end of the chorus.

So anyway, for me, BIAB and play alongs don't help with what I think are my weaknesses, time and phrasing. Using a metronome helps with rushing. You are right that hearing what your outside stuff sounds like against the changes is harder, but I think even there it is good to play unaccompanied.

It is fun to play with play alongs, though. So when I want to relax I do it. I just think it isn't as focused as not using them.

That said, I'll take the opportunity to link to two play alongs I recorded with some friends and posted here before:

all the things you are SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads
this I dig of you SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads

[GuyBoden]

When using BIAB, there is a tendency to read the chords on the screen instead of hearing them internally.