Practicing Lines - Do you need a backing track of some sort?

[monk]

Monk,

Sometimes I think I am losing it. You were right when you pointed out the "Jazz Greats" extends way back to the 40's and 50's (Tal Farlow, etc...) not just the late 50's and 60's.

AlsoRan,

The history of jazz extends back to the turn of the Twentieth Century, possibly the 1890s. Not just the 60s, 50s or 40s.

There should be plenty of historical reading and biographies available in your local library. Indulge your passion, learn its history and players.
Regards,
Jerome

[cosmic gumbo]

I used to practice The Catfish Strut while my mammy put down a rhythm on the washboard, scrubbin' laundry.

[AlsoRan]

AlsoRan,

The history of jazz extends back to the turn of the Twentieth Century, possibly the 1890s. Not just the 60s, 50s or 40s.

There should be plenty of historical reading and biographies available in your local library. Indulge your passion, learn its history and players.
Regards,
Jerome

Now that point I do understand and know, but the periods of Jazz that I am really fervent about began in the mid-to- late 40's, through the sixties, although I must admit, hanging around this forum has shown me a few modern players I can get into.

[Phil in London]

Hi Phil. I agree with you.


I can see how my reply may have seemed unidimentional, nostalgic, or even cynical, but it wasn't, I assure you. (I may be a bit cranky because my back hurts like hell, but I was not ranting.) I was simply trying to answer the OP's question "what did the Jazz Greats that were to poor to afford a recorder, or who were learning before taper recorders were widely available do? Play to vinyl records or tape reels?"


I admire the way the jazz and blues musicians learned their skills and their art, 60 to 100 years ago. The only way to learn was by playing with other upcoming or established musicians. That, and listening to radio shows or transcribing from a record.


I also see that society has changed, technology has evolved, and we may have lost a lot of things in the process, but we gained on many others.


I certainly benefit from all the material that is available today. It does not even compare to what was available when I was a teenager, some 35 years ago! I also make ample use of iRealBook, GarageBand, and sometimes my Ditto. I wouldn't be where I am musically without these, but there is nothing to replace what I learn when I play with others or in front of a public.

Cheers!

hi Eddie, sorry for misunderstanding, I can see now where you are coming from. And I agree with you, it is rather amazing what people developed in the old days without technology being available to support them. In my early years, I studied 'classical music' at conservatory, and I was always amazed about the skills of orchestration that people like Brahms, Wagner or Richard Strauss exhibited, and all they had was an old fashioned piano, pen and paper in front of them, without Sibelius or a virtual orchestra at hand to test how their work may actually sound when played by 200 people. Comparable to Coltrane inventing his own harmony and improvisation framework, with no backing track available for trial and error loops other than the guys he was playing with. Incredible explorers and characters.

Sorry if my reply was a bit defensive; some forums here are surprisingly aggressive (on minuscule topics), which may explain the background of our communication error

[henryrobinett]

I'm really surprised at the insistence for using backing tracks or that older musicians must've used them or how could they manage to learn to play without them. I've never used them. I've known a lot of "old timer" musicians who never had to rely on backing tracks to learn. From Jerome Richardson, Buddy Collette, and a bunch of the west coast giants of the day - Mingus and Dexter. You did transcriptions and learned tunes, but you learned the CHANGES and practiced playing the changes WITHOUT backing tracks.

From Freddie Keppard to Armstrong, to Betchet to Bix, Bean, Prez, Bird. There was a world a great players before BIAB or Abersold.

[pkirk]

I'm really surprised at the insistence for using backing tracks or that older musicians must've used them or how could they manage to learn to play without them. I've never used them. I've known a lot of "old timer" musicians who never had to rely on backing tracks to learn. From Jerome Richardson, Buddy Collette, and a bunch of the west coast giants of the day - Mingus and Dexter. You did transcriptions and learned tunes, but you learned the CHANGES and practiced playing the changes WITHOUT backing tracks.

From Freddie Keppard to Armstrong, to Betchet to Bix, Bean, Prez, Bird. There was a world a great players before BIAB or Abersold.

One thing I'm coming around to understanding better is that playing with backing tracks hides a lot of weaknesses.

Relying too much on backing tracks makes aimless noodling sound better since the backing track carries the form/harmony/time, things that should be in the solo but like "optical illusions" gets heard even when the solo doesn't have it.

But If you practice tunes solo, with emphasis on phrasing, time, and clear spelling of the changes, it will sound stronger when you play with a group.

[Phil in London]

I'm really surprised at the insistence for using backing tracks or that older musicians must've used them or how could they manage to learn to play without them. I've never used them. I've known a lot of "old timer" musicians who never had to rely on backing tracks to learn. From Jerome Richardson, Buddy Collette, and a bunch of the west coast giants of the day - Mingus and Dexter. You did transcriptions and learned tunes, but you learned the CHANGES and practiced playing the changes WITHOUT backing tracks.

From Freddie Keppard to Armstrong, to Betchet to Bix, Bean, Prez, Bird. There was a world a great players before BIAB or Abersold.

Just to get your point - who in this thread insisted that one needs to use backing tracks? And was there anybody who challenged that there are countless great artists who apparently never used backing tracks?

[henryrobinett]

One thing I'm coming around to understanding better is that playing with backing tracks hides a lot of weaknesses.

Relying too much on backing tracks makes aimless noodling sound better since the backing track carries the form/harmony/time, things that should be in the solo but like "optical illusions" gets heard even when the solo doesn't have it.

But If you practice tunes solo, with emphasis on phrasing, time, and clear spelling of the changes, it will sound stronger when you play with a group.

Yeah, like I said if you rely on backing tracks you learn to skate with your ear and not learn a lot of stuff you should know. It's very important to learn correctly. Back in the 40s and 50s, most sax players had to learn the tune when they practiced. They couldn't wait for a piano or guitar player to learn those tunes. And you couldn't afford every single 78 for every single tune you had to learn.

[henryrobinett]

Just to get your point - who in this thread insisted that one needs to use backing tracks? And was there anybody who challenged that there are countless great artists who apparently never used backing tracks?

I don't know. I wasn't reading too closely. Forgive me if I was wrong. It seemed to me that's what some one or two people were insinuating.

[ronjazz]

True enough, Henry, but that was a world where playing live music was a common occurrence, rehearsals and sessions were standard fare, and one could gig 6 nights a week. Times have changed rather drastically, and I find myself grabbing my looper to work some things out harmonically or conceptually before going to the gig. One of the weaknesses of practicing solo is that your time feel may suffer without something to refer to, and whether it's a metronome, a recording, a looper, or a friend playing bass or brushes, practicing time feels is an essential part of the jazz canon.

[henryrobinett]

Absolutely. I use a metronome all the time. It's good to have a time reference but not absolutely necessary. Chick Corea never used one.

I don't see how using backing tracks help one work out harmonic things one bit.

[monk]

I don't know. I wasn't reading too closely. Forgive me if I was wrong. It seemed to me that's what some one or two people were insinuating.

Henry,
You've proven yourself to be an asset to this forum with your advice and observations on more than one occasion. Your recordings and website demonstrate that you can play and know whereof you speak.

However, don't you think it might better serve the discussion to be completely familiar with the intent and content of the conversation before posting?

Regards,
Jerome

[christianm77]

No

But - playing with backing tracks and records is a good way to experience jazz time. It can't be the only thing you do. For a start it's much easier - you get ideas and time/feel from records.

However - your lines should define their own rhythm and harmony (that can be the original or substitute harmony) not simply float over the top of someone else's hard work.

I suggest practicing lines very slowly - click 60-80 quarter notes, carefully outlining harmony. You can start very simple - triads are cool. You can use substitute triads, passing scale tones, extensions and so on when you have mastered this.

Another thing I like to do - play along with an Aebersold and record yourself (on garageband, say) Turn off the original backing track and listen to the results, without any kind of reverb or echo.

Metheny lays it down in this harsh-but-honest private lesson....

His advice is very simple, and I've found it helpful.

[henryrobinett]

Well no. I don't gave the time. Sorry. If you notice it's been several months since the last time I posted ANYTHING to this forum. If you gave a problem with me posting I have no problem gong away.

What posts I do make are instructive, by and large. If anyone feels playing to backing tracks helps harmonically I'm here to say I believe that is a false notion.

Jesus. See you later.

[christianm77]

"
The idea of the commercial backing track actually precedes the Aebersold material by over two decades. An older musician friend of mine mentioned using "play along records" in the mid 40s. In recent years I've managed to track down and acquire three of these 78 RPM records which featured George Van Eps, Stanley Wrightson, Nick Fatool and Phil Stevens as the rhythm section. The records featured one song per side in the standard key which allowed a player to solo for three minutes.

Regards,
Jerome

Really interesting info - thanks for the research!

[randalljazz]

[Phil in London]

If anyone feels playing to backing tracks helps harmonically I'm here to say I believe that is a false notion.

Jesus. See you later.

No problem of course, any opinion is viable. From my point of you, if you superimpose patterns such as sequences of inside/outside pentatonics on standards, or replace standard harmonies by quartal patterns, then only the most musical can hear the chord framework with their inner ear so that they can truly assess if the inside/outside progressions sound good in context. For pianists, the most natural thing in the world is to support their lines with left hand comping to make the relationship audible. Guitarists who dont want to be bothered with doing the same with one hand, can realise a similar check through backing tracks. Again, its not the only thing to do, thats well understood. But if you study e.g. David Liebman's book on improvisation, at some point you will need a reality check of the patterns and wanderings.

[targuit]

I would respectfully disagree with Henry's opinion on playing along to backing tracks in terms of benefit for one's musicianship regarding time, swing feel, and other parameters of playing in a groove. Last night I was studying When You Wish Upon A Star. I create my own transcriptions and 'backing tracks' with Sibelius, entering notes via a keyboard synth. Sibelius permits me to vary tempos, play performance parameters, orchestration, swing, an other factors.

So essentially I was playing along to my own transcription, after studying and playing along with two of my favorite players' versions of the song. Jeff Linsky in the key of A, and the great Joe Pass in D. During these couple of hours I would also just play solo as well, working over the arrangement. As part of my practice approach, I change my timing and feel to play the tune like a tango or a bossa or a blues. Generally, I don't sight read my chart so much as use the music as the next best thing to playing with live musicians. I fail to understand why playing along essentially to the music you have written in terms of melody and accompaniment staves should not be beneficial to one's practice.

I played that tune inside and out. I had fun with it, and using Sibelius in this way is one of the best ways to improve musicianship in so many ways, not the least of which is the audio-visual aspect reinforcement. And it is great to have a band that can actually play in tune and keep the groove without the big egos and temper tantrums. And at four in the Am!

[henryrobinett]

Wait!! I only talked about backing tracks to benefit HARMONICALLY, not rhythmically. Of course it helps with swing, but that's not what I was referring to.

Look, whatever works for you is good. It might take longer to get there one way over the other. The point us in getting there.

For help with playing through CHANGES I don't find play-a-longs particularly helpful. Even inside/outside playing which I do a lot of. You can hear that stuff. Play the chord, arpeggio and follow it by the outside pattern or phrase. Especially quartal stuff, superimposed chords, patterns, scales. Yeah, I've worked a LOT of that stuff and never relied on backing tracks, ever.

I'm not saying it's wrong by any means.

[Nabil B]

When I'm trying to come up with new lines by incorporating a new harmonic or rythmic concept (new vocabulary, if you will), I like to practice without anything else than my guitar. No backing track, no metronome, because I really need to take my time to hear the new ideas and think about what I'm doing. I might play the chord or progression I'm working on before and during my practice session, to "install" the sound in my ear. When I feel comfortable using the new material, I switch to using the metronome or a backing track, gradually increasing the tempo.

[targuit]

Once you acquire a certain facility at playing the changes on the fly, then listening and reacting to what is happening around you is important. Simple example. If you record tracks to a song like There Will Never Be Another You - bass and block chord piano, plus a vibe melody line - you can focus on a solo guitar line where you can harmonize with the vibes by playing the melody up a third or a sixth. Now, you can notate out a chord melody or simply play obviously with thirds, sixths and other extensions as you like, but the effect is a bit different. You can experiment playing directly on, ahead, or a little behind the beat. In the song I'm referring to you can lay down a walking bass style line. Generates a lot of groove and motion.

I, of course, also play a lot solo, but what is a great practice includes playing along initially with the tracks as a kind of support that I construct myself, as I notate the tracks. Like being the carpenter that builds the walls of your house. So I play through various feels and times a few times. Then, when I just play the solo guitar, my feel for the song reflects the sheet music and the sounds which I have assimilated and internalized that much better. I suppose BIAB may in some ways sound more authentic percussion and performance wise with their Real Tracks (don't have it yet), but with Sibelius, you create the lines, the harmonies, and the melodies. Just doing that itself reveals the song. The possibilities are endless.


In effect, whether you are playing in a quartet, trio, duet, or solo, you are creating the same lines in your playing.

[christianm77]

Then you often have to play in a trio with bass and drums.

Or a duo with a sax or singer.

Actually I think you can go too far the other way. I actually find chordal compers quite difficult to work with sometimes if they are working with a concept different to my own. That's why it is important to play with lots of other musicians in different combinations, so you learn how to work with them!

Backing tracks may be a valid substitute if it's hard to organise playing sessions.

Loop pedals are a funny one - anyone practiced with those?

[christianm77]

Oh also the comping thing is a funny one ... should the piano LH be comping at the same time as the RH is playing a melody? Not necessarily.

What you are dealing with is counterpoint - it's one of the reasons that the 'self comp' thing - i.e. punctuating solo lines with chords - works to create the illusion of a soloist+comper - especially if you differentiate the sound, colour and volume of the chords and solo line, and is the basis of Joe Pass's approach to solo jazz guitar.

I think that a vertical concept of jazz improvisation - that is you stack some notes on top of other notes and you have an overall sound - is only part of the story. The horizontal aspect of improvisation is really important, and a strong melody/line will stand on it's own.

A chord on the other hand is perceived as a colour or quality - if you listen to a set of block chords, you are in effect listening to a single note melody 'thickened' by the addition of other tones.

Human perception of time and therefore music is linear - you can't several voices at at time - just one. Skipping between several voices in music is customary. Try listening to a Bach fugue say and hearing all the voices at the same time. I guarantee you won't be able to.

When you play alone, it is up to you to create the whole music. When you play with others you must leave some space so that they can also contribute. Easier said than done!

[targuit]

Not sure I agree with you on hearing only one voice at a time, Christian. I am listening to John Williams' recording of Barrios - From the Jungles of Paraguay. I do hear the voices as counterpoint, as chordal and passing tones, the motion.

[Jonzo]

Practicing lines under different conditions will teach you different things. Consider your learning goal, and choose accordingly.

i don't know what Wes or Joe did, and I am not a great improviser. But there you go.