-
agreed patrick. Not saying that other methods are invalid but copying solos is the tried and true and proven methodology
-
04-01-2014 01:38 PM
-
Matt, I think we may be talking past each other. I am making a comparison between a structured class v. picking up a language informally, as in your work environment example. A good class will have elements similar to the work environment, but you won't often find someone at work to give you a structured grammar lesson.
-
Show the proof.
Originally Posted by jzucker
-
I never said a good teacher's input wasn't important. I think I said the opposite. And my point wasn't that an immersion class was inferior to a workplace environment where one is scrambling to learn a language.
It's the idea that repeating and imitating isn't very valuable in learning almost anything . I think imitation and repetition are fundamental to the way that we learn just about anything in life. You won't find an immersion class or a collegiate jazz program that doesn't include those 2 elements.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-01-2014 at 02:52 PM.
-
You know for me, it was stuff I learned ten years before I got into jazz that became really useful...I was sure glad that I had a teacher at age 12 who demanded I learn the note names on the fretboard, that I learn to spell my major scales...that stuff became invaluable when I actually sat down to try and figure out what was going on in jazz...by that time I had no teacher, I was on my own...
-
I have posted the link to this article before about learning a foreign language, and I think it is really good.
What?s the secret to learning a second language? - Salon.com
The basic idea is:
- Use your intellect to understand what you are learning, rather than only memorizing. Learn the rules.
- Use spaced repetition to efficiently memorize vocabulary and grammar.
- Use the language for a purpose.
- Interact with native speakers.
-
When I first began to learn things from recordings, I learned them note for note.
When I jammed with friends, I played them note for note.
As my collection of learned/memorized solos grew, I began to see, or actually hear, places in other tunes where I could insert this phrase or that phrase. At that point I began a phase of "cutting and pasting". I would disassemble solos and reassemble the phrases over other tunes. I would hear that Phrase 1 would sort of work but wouldn't flow into Phrase 2 gracefully. So I began to "tweak" phrases so that they would connect in a musical, at least to my ear, manner.
At some point along the way I began to notice that sometimes when trying to learn a new solo I could get no farther than the first measure before I started to hear other possibilities. That one phrase might give birth to two, three or five other phrases. When that happens I pause to write them down for later study.
When I was a student at GIT in the early 1980s, there was one common thread among all the jazz guys at the school. Howard Roberts, Joe Pass, Ron Eschete, Les Wise, Joe Diorio, ALL OF THEM said that quickest way from the practice room to the bandstand was to copy solos off records.
To wind back around to the OP, for someone who is making the transition to jazz from another style of music I would recommend Robert Conti's Ticket to Improv DVDs wherein he teaches simple solos to standard tunes which the student can augment by listening to and learning the heads either by ear from recordings or using sheet music.
Regards,
Jerome
-
Django Reinhardt Originally Posted by Jonzo
Charlie Christian
Tal Farlow
Jimmy Raney
Johnny Smith
Wes Montgomery
George Benson
Lenny Breau
Chet Atkins
Jerry Reed
B.B. King
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
Howard Roberts
Joe Pass
Joe Diorio
Ron Eschete
Oscar Moore
Mary Osborne
Les Paul
Jimmy Wyble
Diz Disley
Bireli Lagrene
Jack Wilkins
Chuck Wayne
Bucky Pizzarelli
Russell Malone
-
Mmmnnn. Do actors become more aticulate and ultimately playwrites because they act out others writers words in plays?
I agree withyou Monk. Fastest way to play in public is to cop stuff off others. The progression you talk about is one we can all recognise. But in the environment you describe, you are also interacting with other players and learning all sorts of other stuff at the same time.
Learning jazz, if we areto take this thread as an example, is absolutely full of learning variety. This is what leads some to say it can't be taught, you just pick it up by playing out a lot.Last edited by ChrisDowning; 04-01-2014 at 02:39 PM.
-
Monk - did any of those guys actually study at GIT, or a music college?
-
This is a list of people who have used transcription, along with many other methods; not proof. Originally Posted by monk
-
Just based on what it did to my playing and some of the others that went through the book with me. I thought the changes in our playing was very positive. This is my favorite book for learning to play single line improvising over jazz tunes. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Silver bullet is probably too strong though... there are a lot of roads that lead to Rome. And certainly one size doesn't fit all. Regardless, if someone is struggling, I think this is a good approach.
For instance, this discussion of transcribing. Examples of some of the best players are used as examples of the benefits of transcribing. Transcribing may have worked wonderfully for these extremely talented, young and dedicated students. Perhaps this kind of model won't work as well for someone who is a beginner in their fifties.
I'm that person in my fifties who has done transcribing, ear training, and various books. The 'Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing, by Joe Elliott is what has been the most beneficial to me.
-
The guys I mentioned in my first post were all teachers at GIT when I was there. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
In the list of players I posted, most were autodidacts and all of them learned to solo from listening to records.
Reinhardt was mentored in the gypsy tradition but learned jazz from Louis Armstrong's recordings.
Pass had a guitar teacher as a child but learned to play jazz from listening to Christian and Charlie Parker records.
Eschete had a college degree in classic guitar but learned to play blues and jazz as a teenager listening to records.
Several of the people on the list like Howard Roberts and Chet Atkins took some lessons after they were already established musicians.
-
What do you call proof? Originally Posted by Jonzo
I know/knew some of the people on that list and I know what they told me about how they learned.
-
Of course not, and I'm sure it's common practice for playwrights to begin writing without ever having studied the work of others. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
-
You would need to demonstrate that one thing, and only one thing, caused the other. Originally Posted by monk
-
I don't see why it has to be one thing. Originally Posted by Jonzo
If all of these players say that it was crucial for them, why argue with them? Do your own thing, but it's silly to dismiss what other people say has really work for them and claim what? they just didn't know better back then?
And, Chris, if we're going to bring music schools into the argument that Joe and Wes were clueless about what was really happening in their "education", then we have to also acknowledge the fact that those same schools not only analyze their playing, but advocate their *methods* as well.
Transcription is a basic part of study at Jazz schools. So, no. They didn't go to one of those schools. The schools just base their curriculum and instruction practices on what they did.
-
The thing I can't buy about this comparison with language is the fact that most people who come to jazz are already musicians and already know the language of music. If we're talking about someone who isn't even a musician yet, I say stay away from jazz until you get some type of musical foundation. Jazz isn't about music rudiments, which must be acquired first. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Originally Posted by Jonzo
-
Not true. There is strong evidence that "Bleeding Gums" Murphy did not. Originally Posted by Jonzo
-
Good point. In "Guitar Zero," the author refers to a linguist (Ray Jackendoff) who also plays clarinet and argues that music is no more like language than it is like following the rules to make a cup of coffee. I don't care for the "jazz is a language" (or "music is the universal language") analogy. Playing jazz is a skill that, as Hal Galper says in a YouTube clip bouncing around this forum, you learn by doing. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
-
Then I must conclude that Ray does not play music that conveys a thought or feeling. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
You don't have to agree that jazz is a language to recognize the similarities between them. I listed several of them. If there are also similarities between jazz and making a cup of coffee, then apply what is relevant about coffee making to learning jazz too.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that playing jazz is not a skill. Are you suggesting that speaking a language is not a skill?
-
If you are saying the evidence is good enough for you, that's fine. But it is not proof in the way a scientist or logician would use the term. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
When my father was in high school, he would eat a rare steak right before every football game, because that is what the great athletes of his day did.Last edited by Jonzo; 04-02-2014 at 12:51 AM.
-
Most people who learn English already speak another language. They have the rudiments of speech down, and understand how language works, but they have to learn the grammar and vocabulary of English. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
-
the proof is the 99.9% of jazz musicians who learned that way. Do your homework Originally Posted by Jonzo
-
and thank god jazz is not a science though if some folks had it their way, it would be played by engineers with pocket protectors instead of folk and street musicians which make up the backbone of the most significant portion of the music's history. Originally Posted by Jonzo
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale