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I'm kind of surprised that many here aren't acknowledging that transcribing is essential. When I first picked up a guitar that's all I did day and night. Mind you that was for more rock and blues but I still do it a lot with jazz. Knowing more about the fretboard, and only the essential theory, has made it much easier for me to transcribe and apply the licks I learn to other tunes in different keys. I highly recommend doing this.
Haven't you guys ever heard a killer lick and said to yourself "I want to play that!!!"
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04-09-2014 12:06 PM
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When you think about it, it's also true for rock players. You always hear them talk about how they learned to play Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, etc. solos when they were young. Hell, even painters usually start out making copies of other painters famous work. Jazz wouldn't be what it is today without the combined creative forces of all the musicians that contributed to it. This is true for all of the artistic disciplines.
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my ex brother in law is a "virtuoso" painter. Robotics Institute: Frank Garvey
He used to sit for 8 hours at a time at the art museum copying the paintings of the masters. When you look at his work, it is completely modern and original but if he hadn't spent honing his knowledge and chops of the historical great works, he would have had no foundation.
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Yes, I have. I feel exactly that way. There are some things I want to be able for the sake of being able to play them. The sorts of things that made me want to play guitar in the first place.
Originally Posted by AlainJazz
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How anyone can put on Wes' D Natural Blues or Benson's Billie's Bounce and decide that for creativity's sake they are above copping those licks is beyond me. Tragically hip... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Indeed, there are a lot of online videos of you playing in your bedroom. I am assuming "sheets of sound" has something to do with the bed sheet hanging behind you. Classy! Originally Posted by jzucker
If you go back to my very first post about transcription, you will see that I was saying that, if you only do one thing to learn improvisation, improvise instead of copy. Is that really so controversial? Is someone really going to go out and only do one thing? Did any of your 99.8% of jazz guitarists learn to improvise without practicing improvisation? I haven't said anywhere in this thread that people should not include transcription in their practice.
I'm sorry if you find it upsetting when I point out that you haven't proven anything, but it doesn't take a performance degree to make that observation. Get over it.
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Jack - Tell you what. I will put up a new video of my playing and perhaps singing if you help me decide which one to put up first. I'm trying to record a demo CD as a 'showcase' kind of thing. Some of the songs I'm trying to get recorded include:
All the things you are
But beautiful
Corcovado
Cry Me A River
Dindi
How Insensitive
I fall in love too easily
I'll be seeing you
My one and only love
My romance
My foolish heart
My funny valentine
Stardust
The shadow of your smile
There will never be another you
This is all I ask
Waltz for debby
When I fall in love
When you wish upon a star
You don't know what love is
My living room is my recording 'studio', unfortunately, so I cannot record vocals late at night when the house is actually quiet. Usually the weekend is the only time, but best is when everyone else is out of the house. But if there is tune in the list, or if you have an alternate suggestion, let me know and I will try to get it up by the weekend. I don't have good video equipment so I have to make do with the video off a Canon camera or use my Macbook i-photo. Currently I'm using my Yamaha classical guitar more than my electric Godin, so it won't be a nice archtop. I can use my Roland GR-20 guitar synth or Yamaha synth for a bass line and some orchestration.
Anything on the list you would like to hear? Give me a couple of songs to choose from.
JayLast edited by targuit; 04-09-2014 at 06:55 PM.
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Once again, Jack, I see your ire with Jonzo. We need a little distention. In any case, I deliver. Take a deep breath and let me come up with the goods.
Jay
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all beautiful tunes. My foolish heart is one of my faves on there but it's a pretty long form. How about stardust? Love that tune. Need to play it more.
Originally Posted by targuit
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Actually, Jonzo, Jack has proved that he can play jazz guitar at a high level, which carries a lot of weight around here. Further, his advice has proved helpful to many players who hope to reach that level. You're the one who hasn't proven anything. Originally Posted by Jonzo
It is fine if you want to conduct experiments on alternative teaching methods---no one is stopping you. No one is stopping you from sharing the findings of others who have done such research. But to act as if you mentioning research you would like to see done but haven't actually done somehow puts you ahead of people who have learned how to improvise is daft. It is one thing to say 'perhaps another way would also work' but another thing altogether to suggest that those who have learned how to improvise are no more knowledgeable than someone who, so far as we know, hasn't learned how to do it OR teach it.
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Love both of those tunes. I'll try to get both up.
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Jeez. That Scott Jones guy sounds like such a wanker. Originally Posted by jzucker
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I joined the forum just to say wtf! Oh, and to learn some stuff. And to say hey to that wanker Scott Jones and that bedromm sheet burner Jack Zucker. Two guys I have pinched lines from! Long live transcription!
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Oh yay! Hopefully we can chase another actual professional published player away! Originally Posted by Jonzo
Some of us actually appreciate learning from people who can actually play. Can you kindly give it a frigging rest?
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Just stop feeding the jazz pedagogy troll.
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Seriously? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I was giving it a frigging rest. He frigging called me out.
Do you really need someone telling you when you have the right to an opinion?Last edited by Jonzo; 04-10-2014 at 01:18 AM.
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A single resource?
A single resource isn't sufficient for an education in anything, why would jazz be any different?
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@RyanM: Originally Posted by angelpa
What do you think helped you the Most learning inmprov?
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i think he meant best bang for the buck which is transcribing as all the masters did. Originally Posted by RyanM
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Thanks jzucker: Yes: "best bang for the buck" with regards to improv.
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Ditto. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I thought I'd post my approach, for clarity... Originally Posted by jzucker
For me, my approach was to LISTEN to thousands of solos, over and over, and be able to SCAT along with those solos (and melodies), therefore INTERNALIZING the music so it came from within.
So, on one hand, I was listening and internalizing, regardless of whether or not I actually understood the concepts within the solos (I knew that would develop over time, with study); and on the other hand I was learning what those CONCEPTS were, that the players were using, rather than the ACTUAL lines, ACTUAL licks, etc. I then, would merge the data of "recorded" solos in my head, with the realization of what they were THINKING and from what they were deriving their language. I did this so I didn't wind up playing lines conceived by others that worked for THEM, but rather it forced me to conceive of my OWN way through the structures, that would be more natural to MY direct and evolving ability.
And, I practiced technique, independently from heads and language, so that should I realize an idea, the chops would already be there to support it. Many approach it from the "learn the music and the technique will evolve around the notes", but I found it more efficient to have pre-installed the technique so the ideas could be more readily supported.
Anyway, I realize it goes against everything taught about jazz improv, but it wasn't that I disregarded the language or ignored what came before, but the intensive listening, combined with pre-installed technique, fueled by understanding of what the concepts behind the ideas were, gave me the opportunity to explore my personal dialect, if you will, of the language, rather than just "parrot" every cliche and line played by someone captured in a recording, because I spent 2 weeks trying to nail a solo note for note.
The music I internalized all made it to the surface as I learned more and more about the concepts within. I also spent a lot of time focusing on the nuances behind the notes (articulations specific to each player), to better emulate the essence of certain players.
Now, all that said, I have transcribed thousands of songs and orchestrations, and arranged hundreds of tunes in multiple styles, so it's not about whether or not I can actually transcribe, it's just my approach. Make sense?
And I'm not saying the traditional, academic approach to improv is wrong, but rather, expressing what I did on my journey.
Clips of my playing and writing in my sig'
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Here's a guy who's a "pretty good" player. He's got a series of licks that he breaks down. What most interesting, is that he stresses altering the rhythmic patterns to make the riff unique to you . . while heeping with the harmonic reference. He also credits this riff to Bucky . . who is also a "pretty good" player. I've copped quite a few riffs/licks from Frank. In lick #2, a Maj7 lick, he references copping the lick from Barney Kessel . . who claimed to have copped it from Bird.
50 Jazz Guitar Licks You MUST Know - Lick #2: Major 7th - Frank Vignola - YouTube
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Very interesting, thanks Scott. It sounds like you did the majority of the work of transcribing--getting it in your ears--without then getting the licks actually in your hands or writing them down. And then separately worked on technique and playing what's in your head. Very interesting approach. Originally Posted by Scott Jones
The clips sound great--obviously it's worked for you!
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