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I think for myself the answer is above a couple of posts ....that is, it just take time, no matter what approach you take. But ultimately I don't understand why taking a visual or aural approach are necessarily in contradiction with each other. I also think that it's nice to start out in chunks.....say like 5 shapes/CAGED or 7 fingers and then expand out into 12 fingerings like Berklee or 3 notes per string. Also, alternating 4 and 3 notes per string makes some good pathways for different articulations and helps link the fingerboard from the bottom to the top. Playing on 1 string at a time is good for that too. And a huge ear opener is variety in chords and chord scales. In general, it's great to just find a variety of visual pathways to create any sound you hear in your head, or to create new ones. And creating/hearing new ones and being able to grab them quickly is an ongoing goal.
Last edited by srlank; 04-20-2014 at 01:52 PM.
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04-20-2014 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by srlank
You're correct, incorporating many fretboard paths and patterns is what happens overtime, but I think basic fretboard knowledge should be learned at a very early stage, I've been playing since a teenager, that's well over 30 years, I learned the whole of the fretboard basic major patterns as a teenager.
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Yes, exactly why I think it's good to start in smaller chunks. What I first learned was the 12 Berklee fingerings, and while I got somewhat comfortable playing through changes within a few frets, I couldn't for the life of me see the surrounding areas. When I learned the 5 CAGED shapes, I saw how it worked up the fingerboard much better.....and where this those 12 Berklee fingerings actually came from!
But I do think that ultimately the answer is a lot of repetition , and forcing one's self into new areas over time.Last edited by srlank; 04-20-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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I agree, chord - scale playing is very limiting, but with that said, anything is limiting if used solely. For example, if one chooses to play triad pairs, but only plays triad pairs, that sound will become monotonous and less hip sounding if used too frequently. There is no right or wrong, the jazz idiom is a completely artificial title that creates boundaries. If we all as improvisers worry less about playing and more about music, the outcome will be more interesting and sonically pleasing than worrying about what to play over a D minor chord. That being said, reaching a level of not thinking takes a lot of learning and a lot more of forgetting.
Paul
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Whatever works... do any of you only use one or two fingers to play, maybe only use three strings. It can be done. Does anyone sight read through a new tune ... with your eyes closed. There's probably a way to make it happen.
What do you think are the reasons why your playing is where it's at... how well you can perform what you hear, how well you sight read, how well you can lock into a tune with out rehearsing what your going to play... over and over, how you can't perform tunes a faster tempos, or at least what seem like faster tempos.
None of this really matters, who really cares, it's just music. But this is a Jazz guitar sight... and there are common practice jazz standards. When you multiply 5 X 10, do you add 10 + 10 = 20, + 10 = 30 etc... or maybe 10 + 10 = 20, + 20 = 40, + 1/2 of 20 = 50
I know extremely stupid examples of nothing... A simple Question, Are you content with the level of your playing Guitar.
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Whatever works... do any of you only use one or two fingers to play, maybe only use three strings. It can be done. Does anyone sight read through a new tune ... with your eyes closed. There's probably a way to make it happen.
Isn't that a oxymoron??
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Yea... sorry, somewhat my point, the extreme approach. Thanks for picking up.
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Hey Reg, Originally Posted by Reg
I don't know what Guy will say, but I'll give my answer. As you may remember I also tune in P4. For major, MM and harmonic minor, there is only one stretching decision and that is in major and the question is just whether to stretch and prepare for higher notes later, or to be lazy and not stretch. I use a stretch when I am running the scale, but when playing I might not depending on what is going on. So short answer: with one exception, organization for stretches takes care of itself.
Now for arpeggios, there are more decisions. But there what I do is make use of most if not all of the possibilities. Just depends on where I am going next. That's when playing. As for running them, theoretically I suppose when running them I should run them in different ways. I probably should draw up some sort of regimen for that. But arps are super easy in P4, so I let it slide.
Not sure how it is for you guys, nor what Guy will say, but for me P4 patters are very visual and very aural and the two are linked (eg the b5s are always in the same few places). They have less to do with "muscle memory" than I suspect is true for standard tuning.
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Thanks jster,
That's personally what fretboard awareness is all about.... it takes care of itself. I have a default fingering system that is my basic reference, my default fingerings. My organization for playing any note collection and the use of those notes, scales, arpeggios, any intervallic organization... organization of finger stretches.... has already been organized. There are options... but the options, (fingerings and stretches), are already worked out. I don't need to look, figure out or think about. I already have a system which I already hear just as well as I can see when I stare at ... no thinking need or involved, unless I choose to do so.
And yes as jster mentioned... your awareness that visual and aural... and every thing else tied to this subject are all linked and going on simultaneously all the time is the beginning.
It pretty difficult to play jazz, it's even more difficult when you don't take the time to develop the tools.
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Isn't guitar super hard? I mean I came from a town with so many guitar players. We probably sent more guys to Berklee per capita than any other town. But the one sax player played jazz better than any of us guitar players. But he definitely didn't practice more than the rest of us, nor did he listen to jazz more, nor try to play jazz more. Originally Posted by Reg
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Reg, because it's 4th tuning, my fingering details are very simple for both Major and Melodic minor. These patterns are repeated all over the fretboard, it's difficult to get lost. Originally Posted by Reg
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This may help.
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Thanks Guy and Jack,
Guy any organized system become easy and requires no thinking if that's the goal... once it becomes internalized. The test for me personally is how well it works in when I'm out of my comfort zone. Where I'm pushing what I'm able perform in a given setting.
Jack posted a great example of a system of fingerings based on The caged approach. And it works beautiful, his application, playing over a chord pattern using that fingering system... (the five position references), works great.
If jack was to change the tonal or modal reference of that chord pattern... the locations of the fingering patterns would change to imply the tonal or modal reference. His improve... or whatever he chooses to play or hear would adapt and the Fretboard Grid would change... still based on that caged organized fingering system. And Jack would not really need think about the fretboard... because it's already worked out and internalized.
Thanks Jack... how many beautiful Guitars do you have? I don't know if that's really right... have all the great guitars ... and also be able to Play...
One thing I did notice... the fingerings of gaps between the positions. Do they create any problems when sight reading, transitions between positions, or are the transitions part of the fingerings?
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haha, thanks Reg. I actually own 3 guitars. I have an '88 175, a '99 Ibanez Metheny and a recent Eastman T386. There was a point in time where I was doing a lot of demos for various product manufacturers and many would send me equipment to evaluate and I do swap gear a lot but am hoping to hold on to the 175 and Metheny for a while
The caged method I demonstrate in the example above works very well. I took a student through this methodology over Giant Steps. He was struggling to play over easy jazz standards and with this methodology I had him improvising over Giant Steps at 1/2 note == 120 within a couple months. He then applied this technique to other standards with great success...
This is a technique I learned studying with Sandole and Martino
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I really like that approach and I've been using it myself... still needs alot of work though ! I have one question : do you advocate visualizing key centers or visualizing each chord/scale separately ? I started out using a key center approach because it was easier, but I then switched to treating each chord separately : this really helped me outline the changes more clearly and understand what I'm doing. Originally Posted by jzucker
Last edited by Nabil B; 04-22-2014 at 03:12 PM.
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Jack, The constant eighth notes makes it not only difficult but extremely beneficial. Imo, your constant eighth notes is a very important part of the exercise. Thanks for the lesson.
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I can't speak for Jack... but personally. A key center has a tonal reference, right, very Macro, one big picture.
Generally most tunes, have a basic tonal reference, key center, a Tonic, whatever you want to hear, visualize as. Not all tunes have just one, such as Giant Steps, which uses Three tonic system with dominant approaches.
The next layer of organization or approach is to establish Target tonal references. This approach can work with...diatonic targets within a general key or tonal center.... or use the new tonal targets as key center references as them selves. Especially when using modal interchange, modal applications, blue notes... whatever tonal or modal organization you choose or are hearing.
For example when Jack was playing over or through the chord pattern... I VI II V. you could simply have the I as the key center, or tonal reference, Then use each chord as a tonal target within that "I" tonal key center and use improve applications that would use each new tonal target chord from a diatonic modal references and general characteristics from each new tonal target with modal references.
So what your playing has reference to the Micro target... each chord of the chord pattern, (modal characteristics), and also has a Macro reference to the general "I" chord and it's key center... simultaneously.
-So you start with one key center... as general tonal reference...Tonic
- You then make each chord within that tonal key center a tonal target, but with modal reference and modal
characteristics.
- you can and usually do move on from there to use of different harmonic applications... use modal interchange to access
different chord patterns to approach each of the new micro tonal targets, the VI, II, and V chords. And general this is one of the common access doors for Melodic Minor etc...
This may sound over thought or just "way to much thinking in general"... but just as fingerings eventually just take care of them selves so does improve... the different applications, harmonic approaches any method of developing a solo etc... just takes care of itself.
I personally choose the seven position fingerings because it help me develop and be able to hear modal characteristics easily... but in the end... I don't really believe it made that much difference... again eventually the fretboard fingering just take care of them selves.
That being said there are specific positions and fingerings that develop rhythmic characteristics and articulations which can be very difficult to camouflage... especially when performing lines or melodic phrases.
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Reg, I've always liked this approach, it's a more modern approach to basic functional harmony. Each chord having it's own tonal centre.
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Yea Guy, that's basically how I approach playing, just adding a few more options for Maj/Min functional harmony guidelines to work with playing Jazz. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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Can any of you guys recommend any books that thouroughly covers this modern approach to modal jazz harmony? I am looking for a book to study from that covers modal playing and tonal areas etc and composition study in the styles of Wayne shorter and Michael brecker. Cheers
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Hey Ti123,
Not sure there is a definitive Book that thoroughly and methodically cover Jazz Harmony. Generally you start with traditional Major/Minor Functional Harmony, Reimann, Rameau with Piston, Persichetti and Schoenberg. I had a friend who has passed away, but taught lastly at Cal. St. Long Beach, his Techniques of 20th Century Composition, was nice transition to Jazz Harmonic principals... but not Jazz.
Much of what has developed into Jazz Harmony and theory is not really anything new... just opening your eyes and ears to be aware of different aspects of same concepts, principles and guidelines. Becoming aware of other relationships and the possibilities of different relationships.
Somewhat like being aware of tonal concepts and being able to comprehend being able to apply modal concepts to those Tonal concepts. Being aware of different guidelines for Tonality and Function.
Most of the private big Music colleges... Berklee etc... have lots of books. Berkmann, Levine and many others have somewhat their versions of the Big Picture.... But it really comes down to you personally doing the research and becoming aware of the music. Jazz has been around long enough to have developed... Jazz Common Practice.
I'm not always around... but have a very good understanding of both Traditional and Jazz Harmony and theory. I'm more than happy to try and answer questions and explain... whatever. Beware... Disclaimer... I don't get paid or charge and don't have as much patience... And while not my intent... may come off rude etc...I don't babysit, yada yada.
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Hey reg,
I do have a pretty good understanding of minor/major harmony and understand all the fundamentals of theory in general. What I seem to be struggling with though, is accsessing some applications such as superimposing arpeggios and pentatonics over certain chords. I have got long list of reference arpeggios for major/ minor and dominant chords including altered.. but Im sure there's a more logical thought process of organising each of these possiblities, instead of just memorizing references such as "play major 7 arpeggio from b7 of root etc. I also remember seeing you write in an old thread that you used melodic minor pentatonic applications . How are you using pentatonics to imply say lydian flat 7 or altered scale?? I like the idea of having several options instead of just scale shapes to work with when improvising, so how do you pull from these subs ?
Hope you can clear up some of my misunderstand as it's really frustrating me..
Cheers
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