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When you work on licks/lines, is there a specific system you use such that you can instantly use it any key when you see it?
I'm not sure if this is the "Nashville" system, but I use numbers (individual notes) and diatonic chord letters (iim7) etc
For example: this is how I remember some licks over a ii chord (or a ii-V) I'm working on, as taken from Sid Jacobs' excellent Mel Bay Jazz Guitar Lines book. For example: #6 in the Key of G would be the following line:
F#-G-E-C-B-A or G#-A-E-C-B-A (the ii chord in the key of G would be Am7).
What I like about this is I can easily remember anything sequence and I can use whatever rhythm I want (and thats' the more important part, anyway).
IDIOMATIC ii or ii-V Shapes
* means half step from below
All intervals noted for ii chord unless otherwise stated. anything in ( ) means below the tonic or preaching notes
1. iim7 arp, 5-#5-6, or iim7 arp-5-6-7-1
2. 1-2-3-4-5-7-6
3. 2-1-(5-3-2-1)
4. viim7b5 arp, *-IV triad or viim7b5 arp-2-1
5. 2-3-2-b2,-1-(7-6-5)
6. 6-7-(5-3-2-1), #7-1-(5-3-2-1)
7. 3-4-3-(#7-1-2)-3-4
8. 5-3-1-(5-7-5-6).
9. 2-1-b2-(#7)-1-(7)
10. 5-#5-6-4-5-3
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03-20-2014 08:08 PM
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yes, but get them in your FINGERS, and all you need is the starting note and duration. don't bite off too much at a time.
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NSJ - Everyone will follow their own path, but over analyzing and intellectualizing music will not get you to the promised land. Simply put - you need to hear the music and be able to play what you hear. Cataloguing licks in my humble opinion is a terrible waste of time. Learn tunes.
If you would like, it might be interesting to look specifically at a tune that you enjoy and would like to play well. For example, last night I finally found a clip of Wes Montgomery's D Blues or whatever it is called, a tune that was the subject of a thread not too long ago. I had never heard it before. Or some specific standard you find challenging. We could analyze it stylistically or how to approach it.
You learn jazz by playing jazz, not by dissecting it like a frog.Last edited by targuit; 03-21-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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Oh, I agree with you. The goal is not to have a museum of licks, but to incorporate them into tunes. I tend to view this way as simply an intermediate step-an easy way to get them "under the fingers" and to efficiently navigate the fingerboard, put them in tunes so that they become VOCABULARY. Otherwise, licks are useless.
Originally Posted by targuit
Licks----------------------------------------------------------------------Vocabulary
How? through playing them in tunes.
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Yes, licks = vocabulary = lines = phrases etc.
I've yet to hear a player that I listen to often in which I can't hear repeated vocabulary (licks, phrases, lines, whatever you want to call them). Even Scofield.
I categorize them by function (this wasn't my idea, it's from the book 'Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing'). All, my licks in my lick diary are vocabulary I came up with myself, my own phrases or lines. Practicing technique from my lick diary is way more valuable and rewarding than practicing straight scales or arpeggios.
Like,
ii V i licks is a category
ii V I licks is another category
And, yes, like you referred to, it's just a step in the process. Once you know a lick well or several licks well, they just become part of ones playing in that you might use a piece of one, or turn one into an extended sequence, or use part of one and part of another, or change a few notes for it to fit a different chord quality etc.Last edited by fep; 03-21-2014 at 12:42 PM.
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Hmmm...I know Frank is a player, but I have to disagree respectfully as to the value of 'collecting licks' or the notion that every player's vocabulary is characterized by licks. I put up a link on another thread of Birelli Lagrene, Sylvain Luc, and David Reinhardt playing Nuages by Django. I would love to hear about the licks Birelli and Sylvain were playing in the clip and just how they integrate that into their playing. Because I don't hear "licks", and while I'm sure they do practice scales and other improvised runs, I don't think Birelli needs to categorize them by progressions or anything of that nature.
Just my personal opinion. The ultimate objective is to play what you hear in your mind as I like to say "at the speed of thought". That is how I do it. I'm not suggesting that my playing or my concepts are not influenced by other musicians, but rather that I am capable of playing what I hear in my head within the technical limits of the instrument and my creative limits. What I'm trying to express is that I never approach a song from that perspective, but rather what sounds good to me in the moment. Rather than rehearse licks I just play the music. That is improvisation. Recycling phrases in various keys or progressions makes no sense to me. But this is just my opinion. Worth 2 cents....
NSJ - Can you give an example of a song where an analysis might bear fruit? We could at least discuss improvising within a concrete context of melody, harmony, and rhythm? Of course, if your objective begins and ends with collecting licks that you will somehow link together into a coherent guitar part, then ignore my suggestion. But really talented musicians play from the head and heart working together in the moment. Someone on another thread quoted I believe Clark Terry who said learning to be a good or great musician could be summed up by three words:
Imitate; assimilate; create.
Jay
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There are some videos of the great pianist Hal Galper on youtube, where he talks about his concepts. All of them are worth watching. Be prepared to loose some precious practicing-time ;-) This is the one, where he talks about licks. It starts around 4:00.
By the way: His book on Forward Motion is great!
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I'm sure many of us would really like to hear the results of your method of eschewing licks, targuit.
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Originally Posted by jckoto3
I don't think anyone eschew's licks. Licks/vocabulary seems to make their way into everyone's playing.
My interpretation is that targuit doesn't set out to practice licks. But, it's certainly possible that he could acquire licks/vocabulary through practicing songs even if he isn't consciously aware of it.
Even Metheny has said that on a good day maybe 30% of what he plays in an improvisation is new and original, the rest is using stuff he's played before.
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I'm very visual, so the big thing for me is getting a lick to work on different string sets, accounting for that little half step "bump" the B string involves. I worry little about the scale degrees or what chord tones the notes in between are (obviously I look at them to see how they fit over a chord, but I'm not memorizing chains like "1, 3, 5, #5, b7, etc"--I just like to make a mental note of where they start and finish.
I don't like big catalogs. I work with a handful of stuff until it's internalized to the point of where it's naturally availabl in my playing, then I tackle another small handful. I'm content to add a lick a week to my rep...that might even be a lot.
The only way my brain works with this stuff is doing...I can write down until I'm blue in the face, but I need the visual and mechanical aspects to truly "get" something.
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Since Bireli Lagrene was mentioned, I thought I would mention that he began playing at a very early age (four) and was "instructed" or mentored, in the gypsy tradition by older relatives and friends.
It has become tradition among the gypsies to use Django's recorded solos as etudes to form an aural tradition much like the one that they used for hundreds of years to pass down their folk songs from one generation to the next.
The student is shown how to play the changes and melody to a tune like Minor Swing in increments. For instance, the first measure of Minor Swing which is only three notes is shown to the aspirant who practices it until he can play it back to the mentor's satisfaction. Then the notes of the second measure, again three notes and so on. When the student can play the melody in time with proper phrasing and good tone and accompany another musician with solid time , the mentor then begins to show the student one of Django's solo in small bits. The student has to master each small phrase before being allowed to learn the next.
This method is part of the culture of the gypsies and it is understood that if one wants to play, one follows this path. As the student learns first one then another tune note for note, he learns technique, timing, repertoire, vocabulary and ear training. With each new tune learned the process speeds up. There are Gypsy Jazz guitarists who can sit down and play all of Django's recorded solos on Minor Swing in chronological order which is a sizable chunk of vocabulary. Most importantly it's vocabulary that can be deconstructed and reassembled for use in other tunes.
Gypsy Jazz guitarists catch a lot of flack from American players for playing Django's solos verbatim in the course of their public performances but it must be understood that for most of them there is a cultural reason for doing so. They are paying hommage to the man who gave them this music and who is arguably the most famous gypsy who ever lived.
This gypsy "method" of passing the music along is a completely organic and aural tradition and, as such, is the closest thing to the way American jazz musicians originally learned to play.
If Birelli's playing appears to be lick free it's probably because he has had 43 years to internalize and personalize the music he learned as a small child.
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Here is how I rehearse my music lick-free. Last night in the early morn hours I worked on two transcriptions of mine: 'Round Midnight and You Don't Know What Love Is. With Sibelius I create usually two staffs - melody and an accompaniment staff(s) (guitar, piano) - plus lyrics and chord indications (Cm7b5). The music is in standard notation. I keep it relatively simple, as I improvise the parts in any case. But for rehearsing the song, I like to silence one or the other staffs. For example, to work on accompaniment or comping, I let the melody play (vibes, in this case) and mute the 'rhythm' track. And vice versa when I want to work on the "melody" or chord-melody style.
Much of the 'vocabulary' you want to learn is in these songs as written with extensions, the rhythms, harmonies...this is the essence of jazz. If you want to call that "licks", ok, but when I play, I am listening and virtually immersed in the music's flow, the harmonies implicit, the rhythms and I add my voice to the interplay. Last thing I'm thinking about is 'licks'. Perhaps it is due to my classical training and a half century of experience that I think of the notes as...well...part of phrases that I either imitate as in interpreting a melody or create. As music.
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I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a Licks vs No Licks scrap.... OP asked for how we organize licks, so those of us that admit to practicing them should try to, if they wish, stick to the question. I keep mentioning how inspired I was to hear a warm up tape of the stupendously gifted Clifford Brown going through his 10 minute warmup routine where he has a giant etude that incorporates all his licks and/or devices. The way I try to do something similar is to first decide which are my devices and which are lines or licks. Devices I learn in all 5 positions, but certain licks or lines I tailor for just one specific position. In my own giant etude I move through each position for a given key and go through all the arps and devices first then proceed to position specific material that only get played in that given position.
So each position has a mixture of material common to all positions, as well as material that only fits (or plays well) in that specific position. I think if you have 10- 30 minutes of solid material all up (which I'm slowly working towards), and you have a way of summing all this up regularly (giant etude), then there is more chance you will access this stuff in the heat of a solo. Obviously, the way all the material gets re combined should offer you endless variations on your chosen set of thematic material. All this surely becomes one's "style", no?
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Yes, I am really interested in hearing replys to the OP. I love creating licks as well as learning them from other players. It is something I just started getting back into this last year after focusing for a long time on other aspects of improvisation. And my biggest problem has been trying to find a consistent means of organization. Thus far the best method for me has been taking any given idea through 12 keys within a tune. Some licks with unusual articulations however don't necessarily translate well to as many positions, so I just do the best I can with it, and maybe tweek the concept here and there. This helps me retain it in my aural memory, so I don't necessarily need to write it down. But it's hard to retain everything over time. I've tried writing stuff down, but that just doesn't really seem to resonate with my learning style. I don't think I have ever retained anything that I have written down (or recorded for that matter).
Recently I checked out Mark Elf's site, and his whole system seems to be based on learning vocabulary which he puts in context of a ton of tunes. After hearing Mark Elf, there can't really be too much of an argument against this system.
By by the way, I have also checked out Tim Miller's site, and he is also heavily into building vocabulary. And he advocates playing and creating etudes.Last edited by srlank; 03-22-2014 at 07:12 PM.
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To stay on topic - is a "lick" a specific improvised melody or a rhythmic device or a technique? And if you have 'books of licks', are they categorized by chord progression? How is that different from learning a set list of songs that you play? I do create my own practice patterns as I work off my transcriptions.
I'm not trying to set up an Us vs Them thing regarding licks. If licks help you get through the night, more power to you. Given that one can use transcription devises to slow the tempo of recorded music, there are much fewer obstacles to deciphering the notes played by the Gods. No more wearing down the vinyl as in my youth. If I didn't know what I know now, I would have liked to learn it now. (Zen-like phrase.)
Come to think of it, would a custom licks transcription service be commercially viable? You specify which licks you want to learn and someone creates the sheet music for your lick collection. I'm serious here. Though a video taped version would far superior in tandem with the sheet music.
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By the way, here's a Pat Metheny warm up routine at a master class he gave in Italy.
One of the comments simply said, "Bach, fucking Bach!"
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I'm always a bit taken back at individuals who feel the need to add an expletive in describing just how great they thought the music was. Knowing that young kids watch YT. Seems to be the mark of an individual with a certain intellectual poverty of expression.
In any case, and this is hopefully pertinent to the discussion about licks, I'm posting a link I just found tonight to a Marian McPartland interview with Bill Evans from the Seventies. This interview bears listening, in part for the brilliant jazz piano played by both, and just to listen to Bill Evans talk about his approach to music. Inspiring doesn't begin to describe the brilliance. Even without the expletive.
There are several performances of pieces like Waltz for Debby, Reflections, and others that are astoundingly beautiful.
Marian McPartland’s 1979 interview
JayLast edited by targuit; 03-24-2014 at 05:54 AM. Reason: "McFarland" to McPartland. Good thing I didn't leave in the "t" the first time....
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That's on one of Evans' box sets, I think. Fantasy box? Listening now. What a toweringly understated genius. Originally Posted by targuit
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Originally Posted by monk
this is essentially how indian classical music is taught (gypsies being originally from that part of the world). the essential similarities include the very young beginning age and unquestioning master/pupil relationship. good luck working that into 21st century american culture...
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Nice stuff. This guy really knows what he's talking about. That is what I love about jazz music. Like he said....you learn by doing it, not really from book knowledge or theory. But like he said you need some vocabulary, then with that it is all creativity and how you use it. And it is all in the moment at the speed of thought. Awesome. Originally Posted by Stanford J17
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As an aside, last time I was in Delhi (2011), I found it hard to find traditional instrument shops (I had thought about buying a sarod--incompatible to play with guitar given that you need nails on the LEFT hand, so there went that idea). But I did note the relative explosion of young people forming rock bands around the capital--electric guitars, keyboards, dudes with "Peavey" shirts). Originally Posted by randalljazz
No doubt the traditional classical music is still being taught, but it has some competition now.
Today, I was listening to the local public European classical music station, 98.7, as it was featuring the Shostakovich string quartets. Then, there came on the radio a special report on European classical music in China and the explosion of interest there, the growing number of musical conservatories and schools specializing in European classical music. The reporter even put forth the thesis that the future of European classical music lies in China.
The world is more connected than ever.
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I keep an actual binder with all my vocabulary printed out. I write it in Muse Score and put in the starting interval. I add to it every now and then, when I have two or three more phrases that make it worth while to waste paper on them...
You might say it's a bit anal, but the clearer I have this information, the easier it is for me to use it quickly when I'm building my lines and solos. And knowing where they start makes it dead easy to string them together.
Like Fep, I also use it as a source for technique practice and warming up.
BTW. I organize them just by Maj and Min. They are mostly 4 measure ii-V's (that's two measures of I).
KLast edited by nosoyninja; 03-24-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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Hey, could you put up a link to the Clifford Brown etude - - would love to check it out - - thanks! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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"If you hear a lick that you like, it is a clue to how you feel about music..How you hear. And your responsibility is to put in through the wringer....It's more important to learn 20 licks and a hundred ways to use them."
I like that line. (From the Galper video.)
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Probably this: Originally Posted by jishnudg
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