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The sheer volume of tunes and styles in the jazz canon in 2014 presents a different challenge than players of the 40s, 50s had. In those days there was almost a standard repertoire that players worked from, and you can bet that the majority of guys were copying solos from records as a big part of their process. There were no jazz books, college courses to learn from.
When some of those soloists hit the road, they didn't even take a band, they assembled union pick-up groups wherever the gig was. It was easy to get together guys that were experienced with the hip standard tunes of the day. Everybody knew them.
In 2014, knowing the solos to the 1950's repertoire is not enough to prepare you for what you're going to encounter in the contemporary straight ahead scene. The problem now is that the repertoire is so diverse that we've got a much bigger job than ever. It's a lot more complex to have your ass covered. Modern stuff is more concept based. I still believe that a lot of what you need to know is right there in the solos.
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02-14-2014 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
This is gospel truth. I "jammed" with a friend who could play Hendrix stuff on his strat and my twin reverb many years ago. He really had it down. After he finished playing I complemented him and suggested that we play some 3 chord blues/blues rock. He could not function at all.Last edited by fumblefingers; 02-15-2014 at 02:02 AM.
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Just because you claim my remark was snarky, doesn't mean it was. Originally Posted by Jonzo
You still are fun, FEP!
Still, you need to drop the snarky "are you a teacher? professor? performing pro?" routine. He is writing about his personal experience, and doesn't need any special credentials to do so.
To me someones background is very relevant. On this forum I see forum members give more credance to what the accomplished players have to say all the time. And it only makes sense that they would. Experience, ability and accomplishments are something to consider when someone gives an opinion or a theory. Why wouldn't it be?
Dasein wrote a very thoughtful post and there is logic to what he wrote. From a teacher and seasoned pro I would consider what he wrote to be more than a theory, it would be something that he has seen work in practice. After all he is talking about a path to greatness and he described his method in no uncertain terms. If I hear someone say something like, I've been teaching this method for 20 years at Berklee school of music and have seen tremendous results by my students, why wouldn't I sit up, focus and listen? It is relevant.
You don't need credentials to give an opinion on this forum, I give opinions all the time myself. But when I read opinions I consider them for 1) the logic of the opinion and 2) the source of who is giving the opinion. For some forum members there playing ability and accomplishments are very clear, for others, well I have no idea. I don't see the harm in asking.
There are some forum members that I haven't heard play but still have an impression from the stories and the quality of what they wrote that they are coming from a place of knowledge and experience. There is one forum member who I really like to read his music analysis and take it as coming from someone who really knows what they are talking about... even though I haven't heard him play. I can tell from the quality of his discussions over time.Last edited by fep; 02-15-2014 at 01:35 AM.
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Fair enough. Who am I to judge, anyway?
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Nothing to add, just quoting the whole thing because it should be read at least twice. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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So, for a complete n00b like myself who didn't go to music school but wants to play professionally (only two semesters of theory at a comm. college and private lessons) and just started learning jazz seriously a year ago......I'm screwed, right?
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Nah. We are all on the same long term journey. We have fun along the way. Some are closer to their goal than others. That's all. Originally Posted by Broyale
K
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I have not attended music school, but from what I can discern there is no special sauce there. What you do get is total immersion, motivated peers, a balanced music study program (theory, improv, arranging, ear training etc), lots of jamming opportunities and pressure to keep improving. Oh, and also the boundless energy one typically has between the age of 18 and 22. If you can re-create those conditions outside music school (er, other than the energy - I use caffeine to make up the difference), I believe (IMHO etc) you can still make huge progress. In about 3 more years I should be a pretty good case study for my theory. I need to find more jamming and performing opportunities though; I currently lack a suitably motivated non-pro bassist. Originally Posted by Broyale
I have also heard of guys that claim they learned more from using Transcribe than they learned in music school, which kind of goes back to the OP's point. This may be an exaggeration, but still says something.
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I did study music in college and pretty much agree. In fact the school cafeteria food was pretty lousy. Originally Posted by coolvinny
Seriously though, I got some great stuff out of music school, but most of it is stuff you can do outside of school. For Broyale, if you want to study music in school go for it. But don't worry about it if you don't.
Back to the OP, this thread has actually inspired me to do more saturation listening than I have in the past. Sometimes I just like trying stuff with no expectation of results, to see what happens.Last edited by MattC; 02-15-2014 at 04:21 PM.
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Agreed. That's not to disparage anyone, it's just that the Internet being what it is, it behoves one to be discerning. Originally Posted by fep
Last edited by teok; 02-16-2014 at 06:38 PM.
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For me the secret sauce is having a goal to motivate me. And college does provide a lot of motivational situations. Originally Posted by coolvinny
Outside of college, motivation could come from preparing for your next lesson, a jam session, a performance, a recording, participating in a study group, working on a compisition, etc. I think it's a good idea to put these motivations in your music life. If I don't have motivations like these that I'm working towards then I tend to get lazy.
A couple of forum members did a new tune youtube recording a week last year. I think that must of been very motivating and educational. Talking about creating your own college education.Last edited by fep; 02-15-2014 at 05:40 PM.
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i agree, although in my defense i didn't use Lennie's list verbatim. he didn't include Coleman Hawkins (i get the impression that Lee Konitz just learned those solos on his own) or Ben Webster. and Lennie did not like Dizzy much, either.Don't forget the biggest part of Tristano's teaching was SINGING - read that interview with Lee Konitz (I think it was Lee) where he had to SING Bird's solo on Yardbird Suite for several MONTHS before learning to play it!!
That is where that intensive listening really happens in Tristano's method.
So that's the mechanism, but I think it is a little short sighted to use Lennie's list verbatim.
i get the sense that Lennie's taste could be a lot like Glenn Gould's. Gould didn't like composers like Mozart or Chopin, and while he always gave these elaborate reasons why, i got the impression that it boiled down to "i only like composers with really elaborate counterpoint." and for Lennie, i get these sense that it boiled down to "they are too bluesy/use too much vibrato" or "they disrespected me."
since i don't have those hangups, i have no problem including them on my list. i think there's a lot to learn from someone like Coleman Hawkins, whose approach was very very different from Prez's.
you guys are taking this way too seriously Originally Posted by fep
this isn't "a guaranteed path to greatness." it's just an approach that might help, geez
and honestly, i hate giving my "credentials" over the Internet, because honestly you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. if you don't give your resume, you're just a faceless forums guy, and why should anyone care. if you do, you're just bragging and who do you think you are? at least with the former, there's less typing involved
but since you want to know, i'm a professional (as much as anyone can make a living playing these days) and teacher. i've played with guys like John Tchicai, Greg Osby, and Butch Morris. i was one of Charlie Banacos' last students. now that i think about it, a lot of guys seem to die after coming into contact with me, so maybe i should stop playing for the good of the music.
it doesn't really matter, though, because teaching is an entirely different skill from playing.
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lol Originally Posted by dasein
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I like this thread. Got me thinking- what if we were to suppose that that the total Jazz Guitar pedagogy, as of 2014, could be represented as:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910.
That's everything right there, from Charlie Christian to Mary Holvorson (or whatever you consider ultra modern...).
Now the problem with "learning" Jazz (as opposed to players simply "absorbing" it in earlier times) is that the sum total of all the books, methods, forums etc amount to ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910,
so that the poor unsuspecting student figures they have to learn it all, so they may as well start at "A"....
But they might get to "J" before they realize that every great player, including the ones they admire most, don't even have the knowledge that the poor student thinks he/she needs to amass.
Great Player #1 might only know : ACFL247
Great Player #2 might only know : BGHIMNRUX3679, or ABC123, or XYZ789 etc etc
Nobody knows ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910 !!!!!!!!!!!
Now I don't know whether or not daesin is "qualified" or not to give advice about what to learn and how, particularly as he still may be learning himself, but as a fellow learner I'd also like to offer unqualified advice that I wish I'd heard years earlier-
Check out the pool ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910 , then figure out where you wanna jump in, but only after you know what you like from what you don't like. Learn only what you like. Later you will change your idea about what you like, it doesn't matter, just as long as you like what you're learning at that particular time. If you don't like it, you won't "get" it, and it won't come out in your playing for other people to "get" either.
Don't even worry about what you're supposed to like to be respected or whatever. Better to be a great Swing player than an average Fusion player (I dare anyone to argue that!). If you really like ABC123 and you spent years learning XYZ789, or even ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910 (like I once thought we all simply had to), then you (we) probably got it WRONG .....
OK, so maybe daesin's point is that if you think you like HIJKLM456, maybe a little EFG23 might help. I think he's right, but only if you're still not getting it. Going back historically helps one understand anything better, although for me personally, I started to understand Parker better, and even began to "hear" it, at 50% speed. They always did say that listening to Bird was like Pres at twice the RPM....Last edited by princeplanet; 02-16-2014 at 10:59 AM.
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I'm gonna print this out and stick it my music folder. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I like this thread. Got me thinking- what if we were to suppose that that the total Jazz Guitar pedagogy, as of 2014, could be represented as:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910.
That's everything right there, from Charlie Christian to Mary Holvorson (or whatever you consider ultra modern...).
Now the problem with "learning" Jazz (as opposed to players simply "absorbing" it in earlier times) is that the sum total of all the books, methods, forums etc amount to ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910,
so that the poor unsuspecting student figures they have to learn it all, so they may as well start at "A"....
But they might get to "J" before they realize that every great player, including the ones they admire most, don't even have the knowledge that the poor student thinks he/she needs to amass.
Great Player #1 might only know : ACFL247
Great Player #2 might only know : BGHIMNRUX3679, or ABC123, or XYZ789 etc etc
Nobody knows ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910 !!!!!!!!!!!
Now I don't know whether or not daesin is "qualified" or not to give advice about what to learn and how, particularly as he still may be learning himself, but as a fellow learner I'd also like to offer unqualified advice that I wish I'd heard years earlier-
Check out the pool ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910 , then figure out where you wanna jump in, but only after you know what you like from what you don't like. Learn only what you like. Later you will change your idea about what you like, it doesn't matter, just as long as you like what you're learning at that particular time. If you don't like it, you won't "get" it, and it won't come out in your playing for other people to "get" either.
Don't even worry about what you're supposed to like to be respected or whatever. Better to be a great Swing player than an average Fusion player (I dare anyone to argue that!). If you really like ABC123 and you spent years learning XYZ789, or even ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ12345678910 (like I once thought we all simply had to), then you (we) probably got it WRONG .....
OK, so maybe daesin's point is that if you think you like HIJKLM456, maybe a little a little EFG23 might help. I think he's right, but only if you're still not getting it. Going back historically helps one understand anything better, although for me personally, I started to understand Parker better, and even began to "hear" it, at 50% speed. They always did say that listening to Bird was like Pres at twice the RPM....
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You are correct that bandstand time is critical for development as a jazz musician. The opportunities for an unknown, unproven and/or inexperienced musician to sit in with an experienced band are practically nil these days. Originally Posted by Melodic Dreamer
So create one. It may be hard in a rural area to find enough participants, but in urban areas it can be pretty easy. Go to your local park district and schedule of one of the rooms in one of their buildings one evening a week and have an open jam session for jazz. Post announcements on Craigslist, in music stores, etc. If there's no park district building to use, one of the music stores might be willing to host, or a church, or... well, you have to be creative in the circumstances that are available. It's best if you can find someone who plays jazz well to host, but if not bring videos or recordings to use as models. Mainly use the Real Books since so many people have them.
As a personal example: in Minneapolis the Jazz Workshop (mplsjazzworkshop.blogspot.com) has been running continuously for nearly 40 years. It was started by Sam Favors and Gene Adams and many of the local jazz players got their start at those sessions. While I had been messing around with jazz since my junior year in college ca. 1979, my bandstand time has been pretty much limited to blues jam nights at the local watering hole. For a brief time in La Crosse WI- where I lived for a few years- there was even a jazz club that had an open jam one evening a week. So when I discovered the Jazz Workshop I jumped on that opportunity. There were few participants, sometimes 5-6 and sometimes just me and a singer, but I started posting announcements to Craigslist and started the blog I referenced earlier. We'd get sometimes 10 people or more and almost always had at least a rhythm section- and out of that I met most of the people on my current band. Someone else does the blog now and I don't go any more due to limited time, having to prioritize my band, but the Workshop lives on.
If you want to learn to play jazz, you need other people to play with. If there is no place to do that already in existence locally, create one. I believe that there is a pent up bunch of people who want to play jazz just about anywhere you go. It just needs tapping into.
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Absolutely not. Almost every great jazz musician developed by playing along with recordings, figuring out the melody, the chords if they played a chordal instrument, and solos. It's the most direct way to learn the language of jazz. Originally Posted by Broyale
Start with something that manages to be both simple and profound at the same time, like Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" recording. Miles's phrasing tends to sit pretty well on the guitar and he choses his notes with deliberation- all the ones that are necessary and none that are not. Everything about that recording is marvelous.
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In the long run, we all are. Originally Posted by Broyale
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