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nice thread..good takes...one of Howard Roberts books - on sight reading- did not say to close your eyes but .. a few of his techniques did say to not look at the fretboard but feel the distance between frets..like the first and fifth on the same string notes F and A..then increase the distance without looking at the fretboard .. until you could "feel" the first and twelfth fret on each string...now this to me was very helpful..as I often play in the dark..and today I can create some nice exercises for myself on the fly..using that technique..going up the fret board starting in G and moving in minor thirds to 7th fret Bb and target the F note on the 13th fret..doing some kind of F dominant run into a b6th chord type run into a b2 chord and back to Bb and then moving the entire thing up a minor 3rd .. using octave displacement and finding the same runs in different positions..and octaves..and it helps reinforce knowing the fretboard in all keys..
doing some difficult sight reading in keys like Cb ..but once you really know where the arpeggio notes are for each chord in the key reaching them is much easier..as well as large intervals..and it brings up the discipline of not looking at the fretboard while you are reading
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02-26-2015 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wolflen
My teacher played with his eyes closed professionally for like 55 years. It had nothing to do with "feeling". It was an occupational necessity, borne out of playing Union jobs in SMOKE filled rooms, SMOKE filled jazz clubs, SMOKE filled hotels and supper clubs night after night until one's eyes burned and clothes just about reeked. By the way, Howard Roberts was a friend and colleague of his, and he absolutely would not recommend the 3 volume HR books to any student. Under the rationale that while good teachers should be excellent players, sometimes great players Do not make good teachers.
Practice is an alltogether different thing, it always has to be mindful, calm, relaxed and purposeful. The guitar is a visual-shape driven instrument. We should use it and anything else we can to our advanpntage.
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Wolflen said: "one of Howard Roberts books - on sight reading- did not say to close your eyes but .. a few of his techniques did say to not look at the fretboard but feel the distance between frets..like the first and fifth on the same string notes F and A..then increase the distance without looking at the fretboard .. until you could "feel" the first and twelfth fret on each string"
Jeff answered: Hi Wolflen. Thanks for sharing!
I knew Howard! He was a terrific fellow! I should mention that even if Howard offered not looking at your neck as a method of practice, he probably never did this himself. I played with Howard quite a bit and he never took his eyes off his neck now that I think back on it!
My thinking is that if a practice method doesn't provide a clear improvement to most people by using it, then the method isn't valid for the most part. There are people practicing with this method that don't need it because their problem isn't physical. It is musical!
The method of wearing blindfolds or denying one's sight to improve one's playing was invented to help one to get their hands to play the right notes on the neck and to improve one's ear by listening better. True? Well, simply opening one's eyes and looking where one puts their fingers and listening with a little more attention instantly takes care of both problems. Why add this new method of cutting off your vision when using your sense of sight and listening more acutely is all you need to do to learn or play better?
Thoughts?Last edited by Jeff Berlin; 02-27-2015 at 01:20 AM.
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NSJ said, "My teacher played with his eyes closed professionally for like 55 years. It had nothing to do with "feeling". It was an occupational necessity, borne out of playing Union jobs in SMOKE filled rooms, SMOKE filled jazz clubs, SMOKE filled hotels and supper clubs night after night until one's eyes burned and clothes just about reeked. By the way, Howard Roberts was a friend and colleague of his, and he absolutely would not recommend the 3 volume HR books to any student. Under the rationale that while good teachers should be excellent players, sometimes great players Do not make good teachers."
Jeff answered: Hi NSJ! This thread seems to have been started to champion the benefits of practicing with eyes closed. It is here, as a method of learning that I personally see this as a rather strange approach.
Let's take this logic of cutting off one's sight for a musical benefit and use it in this manner: Beethoven wrote some of his greatest music when he was deaf. Therefore, I suggest that players wear earplugs and noise blocking headphones and cut off sound completely to get into one's deep place to find the music that is there. Beethoven did!
If this seems a silly suggestion, the other seems just as silly to me!Last edited by Jeff Berlin; 02-27-2015 at 01:23 AM.
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Interesting discussion, and very cool to have Jeff Berlin on board. His Guitar Player articles were full of priceless information when I was starting out in the late 70’s/early 80’s (Firstly:Thanks, Jeff! And secondly,: How is it that either of us are that old?!)
As far as playing with eyes closed, I thought I remembered Mick Goodrick having something to say on the subject, and dug out my extremely worn-out copy of The Advancing Guitarist. To paraphrase, Mick says “Sometimes if you close your eyes, you can hear better, sometimes if you look around you can gather/exchange energy” I kind of dig the inherent balance of that, rather than “you should always” or “you should never” it’s “check out what happens when you do this or that”.
On a personal level, I’ve done a lot of work towards not needing to look at the neck to know where I am. That way I can have my eyes shut, or look at my fellow musicians, the chart, the conductor, or the fight that's about to break out over the pool table. (So far, I haven’t had a conductor and a pool table brawl on the same gig. So far…..)
PK
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paulkogut said, "To paraphrase, Mick says “Sometimes if you close your eyes, you can hear better, sometimes if you look around you can gather/exchange energy” I kind of dig the inherent balance of that, rather than “you should always” or “you should never” it’s “check out what happens when you do this or that”.
Jeff answered: Hi Paul! Thanks for your comment! When Mick offered his opinion about closing eyes, he already had traversed a long road of playing and studying way beyond most guitar players. I know Mick and played quite a lot with him. If he closed his eyes while playing, I never saw him do it when we practiced together.
I suggest that people go to Youtube! You might find live players playing music that they already learned and who might be playing this music with their eyes closed. But I don't believe that anyone will find even one educational video where a teacher demonstrating or practicing a musical idea will do this with their eyes closed. What this says to me is that it is already documented that no one closes their eyes while in the practice mode. But many players might close them while playing.
If anyone finds a video where a teacher teaching or practicing a musical vignette has their eyes closed, please post it here. I would be interested in seeing it. I just don't believe that anyone will, and there is a reason for this.
I will keep my eyes open (bada BING) to see what you or others come up with.
Thank you again for your input.
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Hi Jeff.. Originally Posted by Jeff Berlin
I guess my post was not very clear..the Howard Roberts part was in relation to sight reading..as you are not looking at the fretboard as you read..so knowing the "feel" of distance between frets is a good tool to dev
elop..and Im sure Howard did look at the fret board ALOT..it was not my intention to say never look at the fretboard..not at all..and my playing in the dark is just a thing I do sometimes..I look at the fretboard ALOT..
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wolflen said, "I guess my post was not very clear..the Howard Roberts part was in relation to sight reading..as you are not looking at the fretboard as you read..so knowing the "feel" of distance between frets is a good tool to develop."
Jeff answered: Ah, I understand! Well, I come from a background as a violinist, followed by a period as a reading studio bass player. Studio musicians usually have an ability to shift their eyes back and forth between the music and their instrument. It’s easy! It just takes a little time to learn by simply reading music and using your eyes as you practice.
Incidently, do you know the best way to learn how to become a good sight reader?
Answer: Don’t practice sight reading!
Sight reading doesn’t come by reading new music constantly. It comes by reviewing what you read until you have learned it well., then moving to another piece of music to practice until you have learned that piece well.
Do this for a while, and you will sight read with little problem. Everyone can!
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"As soon as you know a piece from memory, then practise it at night in the dark. When the eyes can see neither notes nor keys, only then does the hearing function with all its sensitivity. Nothing is more detestable than music without hidden meaning". - Attributed to Chopin.
I think we can all agree that having eyes to see is a great advantage to learning music from notation. And also that visual cues are important when playing in an ensemble. But, I think that there is something to the idea of enhanced focus on the emotional content of a phrase that may be gained by playing with eyes closed when recording a solo lead track for example.
I probably play my nylon string classical guitars perhaps 90% of my practice time, in part because of the tonal variation and emotion that can be coaxed from the strings with vibrato, alteration of angle of the nails and that sort of thing. With eyes closed you focus uniquely on the tonal and emotional qualities imparted to a phrase. One problem I deal with is a tendency to overplay - too many notes. With eyes closed it sometimes seems to help me let an improvised line breathe, more focused on the spaces between the notes and their emotive vocal quality.
Also, I think it benefits my voice leading a bit. I assume most everyone has had the experience when recording a solo lead track where everything is flowing along great when all of a sudden you get distracted or your focus drifts for a moment. You kind of lose your way momentarily, and you need to recover. Kind of like stumbling when you are running.
In any case it is not an "either/or" thing. Very grateful that I can see - even if it is surely harder to read music these days without reading glasses which is such a pain in the ass.
JayLast edited by targuit; 02-27-2015 at 07:21 AM.
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targuit said "As soon as you know a piece from memory, then practise it at night in the dark. When the eyes can see neither notes nor keys, only then does the hearing function with all its sensitivity. Nothing is more detestable than music without hidden meaning". - Attributed to Chopin.
Jeff answered: Hi targuit!
Chopin learned his piano and practiced it in the daylight with his eyes open. His comment was based in Art, coming from a Master so high in his musical craft that he still is regarded as one of the greatest musicians in history. His was more of a point of philosophy as Chopin always performed in the light.
Thank you for your input.
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Didn't have time to read the whole thread but this has become a reality for me. Once I started singing it was a shock to realize that I couldn't look at the fretboard anymore while playing and still hit notes with my face in the right alignment to the mic.
I still look at my hands during solos. I don't when comping because I'm usually watching the soloist or the drums.
The last phase of practice for me now always is, can I do this without looking at my hands?
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[QUOTE=Philco;395999]It's an interesting subject and definitely one I have thought about a lot.
But I have also noticed with monotonous regularity that a lot of really great players concentrate like hell when they solo.
I especially notice this with Benson. Even though his whole body is relaxed and loose, his level of concentration is very noticeable. He is REALLY watching hard and close most of the time.
I had the incredible pleasure of sitting about five feet away from George Benson performing at The Jazz Workshop in Boston on February 27, 1973 at a table directly in front of him. A wonderful night including his special guest, a young Earl Klugh. George was completely relaxed, smiling the whole time. He sang a bit, but this was before he broke big as a pop star, and he was cool. Btw, the performance was recorded and some cuts are available online with a search of the Workshop and the date. The Jazz Workshop was a relatively small and intimate setting. George demonstrated a real feel for his audience and performing for them. His eyes were open and the smile never faded. He made it all seem really effortless. I'll never forget his rendition of What Are You Doing The Rest of Your Life. I regard that night as one of the peak moments in my life - truly inspirational.
Jay
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