What's Wrong With Practicing Guitar Scales?

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer

Totally agree about Wes. And yes, he started playing when he was 21, but everything he did (e.g. learning Charlie Christian solos note for note) moved him forward, without many (any?) wrong moves. Scott LaFaro started playing bass pretty late too, and Metheny and Birelli started young. Thing is, right from the start they all moved in a pretty straight line toward greatness. The rest of us take much more twisted paths, and ultimately, we realize that we just have to do it step by step and take it as far as we can. It's as you said before, there are no quick hacks.

Well there's a lesson. Maybe emulate what Wes did? Luckily we don't have to work two jobs! (Well I don't thankfully)

Avoiding wrong moves is really what I'm banging on about in this and other threads.

**christianm77** · 01-03-2014, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

Dont get me started.... I dont think Hall outswings Metheny by a million miles. Hall is actually pretty clunky...Metheny cant be outswung, he basically invented how to take Hall and Wes' slurring and make it into a coherent technique.

Emily was just another very mediocre jazz guitarist.

Christian was an amazing pioneer, but his swing is so bad there are no words for it. It was hard enough for him to invent what he did, we can overlook that his was probably the clunkiest swing feel of any major player ev e r. So strange that Lester was his idol, and the single greatest tuing about Young is his time feel.

Ah can now see that I was entirely mistaken in my opinions. You have completely changed my mind on these matters.

**targuit** · 01-03-2014, 02:01 AM

Rich, when I refer to Segovia's version of the major and minor diatonic scales, I'm talking about an edition of scales as fingered or edited by Segovia. I learned to play them at twelve years old. Some time ago...

As for "illogical transitions", I think one should be cautious about critiquing someone who played Bach's Chaconne. There is nothing illogical about the fingering suggested. But that is in the mind and opinion of the beholder.

**kris** · 01-03-2014, 03:38 AM

What about Chet Baker?

**kris** · 01-03-2014, 04:24 AM

Scales are also great for practising articulation and speed on every instrument.
They are a root for every kind of music.
I think every classical musicians work hard on them.

**unknownguitarplayer** · 01-03-2014, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

The Segovia scales just were silly to me. Exactly -- strange illogical shifts, as least as it relates to playing jazz. They made zero sense to me.

I'm not crazy about them either, but Adam Rogers and a few other current players swear by them. I really couldn't see the point of them when I first learned them eons ago, but I dusted them off a few years ago and realized that those ridiculous shifts and fingerings were things that I'd actually done in the heat of the moment. Now, I see them as a sort of catalog of almost every possible shift, and occasionally practice them, not so much for jazz specifically, but for facility in covering the whole fingerboard.

**kris** · 01-03-2014, 10:28 AM

BTW ..Adam Rogers is a great jazz player and one of jazzers who really play classical nylon strings guitar.

**henryrobinett** · 01-03-2014, 12:32 PM

I'm a big Adam Rogers fan.

**henryrobinett** · 01-03-2014, 10:24 PM

BUT I don't know why liking someone's playing or saying that XYZ uses whatever technique, or in this case Segovia scales, should make one bit of difference.

**bako** · 01-04-2014, 01:08 PM

These days, I think of scales as meaningful collections of notes.
A family of harmonic relationships centered around each degree.
I don't believe in avoid notes, just varying levels of tension.
The 7 note scales contain a 13th chord on every degree.
Avoid nothing, learn all available sounds, use those that serve your musical intent of the moment.
In this regard chords and scales hang in the same posse.

Every note collection larger than a single note has smaller subsets.
Every note collection smaller than twelve notes is a subset of a larger collection. 
Jazz is a music that operates on the plane of harmony extended to the 13th.
 While some good music can be made using just primary chord tones alone more often than not the
palette gets expanded beyond 4 notes. Keep in mind that harmony is formed by all members of the
band and not just the melodic soloist.

One approach of doing so is by having a primary collection with auxiliary notes added.  
(ex. arpeggio or scale melodies with chromatic approach notes)

Another is one having a primary scale plus approach chords with their own scale derivations.  

Classical musicians traditionally have used scale and arpeggio study to first put some fundamental
movements in place and then work  on tone and a wide array of expressive articulations.  
While this approach can also be of use for the improvising musician, we also view scales and arpeggios as our harmonic/melodic resource center.  Taken out of context, with all the ducks lined up in a row, all conceptual methods are at the risk of being applied in a mechanical , not so musical way.
It is our job to reanimate these notes with rhythm, form and a story to tell. 

All aspects of music can be broken down, compartmentalized, analyzed in an attempt to better understand
with the goal of playing the music better. We in the West have placed strong emphasis on this interplay between descriptive science and the resultant actions to follow. Music is an aural participant sport, a commentator is a different job description. A child who grows up dancing and singing folk music in 7/8 understands something profound.
As we journey through the great methodological vistas, remember to look up frequently and stay connected to the music.

**ChrisDowning** · 01-04-2014, 01:57 PM

I alway though that the Jimmy Bruno (No Nonsense Jazz) and the Larry Coryell DVDs were very good examples fo what to practice with scales and chord tones. Doing all this stuff is like honing basic skills, it isn't the final product, but ts about keeping the basics sharp and professional.

Trouble is most players have day jobs so a regime of the star players is almost impossible to follow - i.e. four or five hours practice every day. I'd say Jody Fisher's little book about a 30 day practice regime would be a good place to start doing 20 minutes a day on the basics.

**GuyBoden** · 01-04-2014, 03:15 PM

When I was a teenager, about 35 years ago, I had classical guitar lessons and was taught the classical guitar fretboard positions, I remember putting stickers on the frets of my guitar neck with the names of the notes to make it easier. The important thing was linking the positions by logical movements. I've used most systems over the years, but I think 3 notes per string is the most logical, but this can be a bit of a stretch for small hands.

**henryrobinett** · 01-04-2014, 05:33 PM

I've used 3 notes per string since the mid 70s. Make the most sense to me.

**ecj** · 01-04-2014, 05:51 PM

To me it makes the most sense to think of the 12-position system and then see all the other permutations as just iterations of that system with position shifts. All the CAGED, 3-note per string, and Segovia scales fit into it.

The only things that wouldn't fit in would be scales with a span of two frets between the 2nd and 3rd fingers, but I find that so uncomfortable (after trying it) that I wouldn't be interested in any system that uses that. I'm guessing the gypsy guys use these, and I know some of the guys who only play with 3 fingers do it, too, but I find that style uncomfortable after trying it.

The reason I like the 12-position system is that I find it helps with reading and with playing melodic patterns through scales. The shift between the G and B strings is always a problem when you're doing scales broken down into intervals (3rds, 4ths, etc.).

You still run into some difficulties, but it does seem to help when he fingers don't move out of their fret-cover zone.

I try not to spend too much time on this stuff

**monk** · 01-04-2014, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Also didn't Wes start playing at 21?

Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer

Totally agree about Wes. And yes, he started playing when he was 21, but everything he did (e.g. learning Charlie Christian solos note for note) moved him forward, without many (any?) wrong moves.

No. Wes' older brother gave him a tenor guitar when he was 13. He played it in a Chicago tuning (D-G-B-E) until he was 19 and switched to six string guitar (ES-150). He had six years of experience playing lines and chords on the top four strings before switching.

**christianm77** · 01-04-2014, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by monk

No. Wes' older brother gave him a tenor guitar when he was 13. He played it in a Chicago tuning (D-G-B-E) until he was 19 and switched to six string guitar (ES-150). He had six years of experience playing lines and chords on the top four strings before switching.

Thanks for the info - that's very interesting. Given how musical the Montgomery family was I always found it a bit strange that Wes would start so late. No surprise why he did the chord/melody thing the way he did as well, then.

**ChrisDowning** · 01-05-2014, 04:22 AM

Of course you don't actually play all the positions in all the keys. You'll find when reading notation some positions work better for reading than others - so readers have their set of favourites - take a look at some reading materials that deal with positional playing.