Maj7#9 over Maj7 question

[micuentita]

Hi, I'm new to the forum (I registered a time ago but i think this is my first post).

I'm spending a lot of time these days thinking about one thing. I tried to find an answer searching in google and jazz related forums but i couldn't find it. So I decided to open a thread here.

I'm reading "forward motion" by Hal Galper and trying to apply it to some thinkings I have.

If I wanna play a Lydian #9 scale over a Major chord (superimposition) and I want it to sound completely "in", what should I do?

I tought I could apply the "bebop scale" thing to this Lydian #9 scale (I say.. the chord tones are in the down beats). For example: (descending C lydian #9 scale)

C B A Ab G F# E D# C (8th notes starting on beat 1)

So.. I get the chord tones on 1 and 3. Is this OK? should I apply this concept to any scale that is supposed to sound "out" over a chord change? Let's say.. Dorian #4 over a II chord or Harmonic major over a I chord? Is this like that? Or i should use the #9 (on the lydian #9 over major) on a down beat (1 or 3) so the sound of the scale is more strong (and dissonant).


Just trying to understand how this works. Trying to use sounds from harmonic minor and melodic minor over other chords than dominant and sound good.


Thanks a lot! I think we can talk a lot about this thing

[pkirk]

What you are asking seems a little weird from how I think of things. If you are just looking for ways to sound "in", lydian#9 over a major is a weird place to look for it! Your descending example seems like the standard "bebop scale" thing with a #4 rather than 4.
My take on it is that for "in playing" (i.e. let's say jazz before 1958-sounding..) it makes more sense on changes diatonic to a major key to think in terms of notes from the major scale with added chromatic embellishment. harmonic and melodic minor appear mostly on a static minor chords or changes in a minor tonality, or as a tritone sub, eg Ab melodic minor over G7.

For more modern sounds, anything goes, of course. I think of modes of the melodic and harmonic minor as introducing ambiguity into the tonality. As far as what (I think) a lydian#9 would be good for on standard changes, there are lots standard tunes where the changes contain several bars of the type Dmaj/ Dmin or Dmi/Dmaj
(eg Wave, alone together, green dolphin st, cherokee, Yes and No, Four, etc) and one thing I might do is use notes from a major scale with a #9 (and #11) over both the major and minor, the ambiguity "hides" what the chord is.

[micuentita]

I understand. I'm not trying to sound "traditional" or something like that.


Maybe the question is.. How would you use the lydian #9 over maj7 chord.
How do you use the #9 (downbeat or upbeat or it doesn't matter). If you want to use the lydian #9 over maj7 (to get that lydian #9 sound) you have to continue thinking about the chord tones of C major (C E G B)? Or you can play the scale without thinking about that (And then you will have the #9 on downbeat and all that).


Do you understand the question?

[pkirk]

hey micuenita

I don't think I understand your question, maybe someone else will give you a better answer; but I think that there are different answers, depending on how different people approach things like this. For me, I think from the harmony first, not the scales, so, I know what a #9 and #11 sound like "against" a major chord. I think about using those sounds combined with the chord tones 3, maj7, 1, 5, rather than think about the lydian #9 scale. But I know others start from scales in their thinking.

[micuentita]

I mean this:





Is it considered Dorian #4 over the Dm7 and C lydian #9 over the Cmaj7?


I just played the scale straight with the usual "bebop" chromatic tones

[pkirk]

Is it considered Dorian #4 over the Dm7 and C lydian #9 over the Cmaj7?


I just played the scale straight with the usual "bebop" chromatic tones

What you've written *is* a dorian#4 with a #7 passing tone over the Dmi7/G7, and a C lydian #9 over the Cmaj. So yes, you can call them that if you want. Sounds cool in any case.

[Guitarzen]

Honestly, you are over thinking the whole thing. You don't need all those crazy scales, you just need the basic scales and modes and then you add in chromaticism. I don't think most high level players think about crap like "Dorian #4" or "Lydian #9". I just play Dorian, and I allow myself to use all the other chromatic tones freely, so I get all the fancy scales that you are thinking about, but I don't have to think about them. Thinking is what you need to avoid doing too much of when you are playing. The idea that you are supposed to play certain notes on certain beats is bullshit, play them on any beats you want.

[JensL]

If I wanna play a Lydian #9 scale over a Major chord (superimposition) and I want it to sound completely "in", what should I do?

If you want to sound "in" in the situation of a II V I then you should play major on the I and not Lydian #9. If you play Lydian #9 then make it sound like that and hit all the interesting notes in a melodic way so that it sounds cool (to your taste). Trying to get it to sound "in" is (to me anyway) trying to avoid what is great about using that scale as a surprising sound.

Just trying to understand how this works. Trying to use sounds from harmonic minor and melodic minor over other chords than dominant and sound good.

To me it works when you can hear that sound on that place in the progression, so for this example maybe spend some playing II V I's and use a maj7(#9#11) chord on the I chord, that'll help you hear how those lines should sound.

Just my $0.02....

Jens

[Moonray]

How about thinking of the CMaj7#9 as a Maj arpeggio with an upper structure triad.

In this case : C E G / B D# F#

I remember this from a Lenny Breau lesson in Guitar Player in the 80's

The chord was voiced [low to high] G C E B D# F#

I seem to remember the chord was used as a piquant ending chord,
and was to be played with the signature Breau "waterfall" harmonic/natural note effect.

So to sum up, try using triads in a linear way, ala Larry Carlton's approach.

Even if this idea doesn't appeal, you get a cool voicing.

[micuentita]

Thanks a lot for the answers. I know I'm over-thinking this thing. But maybe it lands me to some useful place (or not).

I think I will play different things if I play that "lydian #9" scale that if I play major scale and try some chromatisism. I don't know if it's very useful but maybe I get some new ideas that way.

With "in" I didn't try to say really "IN". I was trying to say.. playing that "lydian #9" and sound without a lot of dissonances (if I play the sharp 9 a lot in down beats it will sound dissonant). Maybe I'm not getting the "fancy" thing about the scale this way, but maybe I'm getting some new ideas.


I don't know, just thinking. Maybe extending the "bebop scale" thinking to a lot of new scales..

[JensL]

Thanks a lot for the answers. I know I'm over-thinking this thing. But maybe it lands me to some useful place (or not).

I think I will play different things if I play that "lydian #9" scale that if I play major scale and try some chromatisism. I don't know if it's very useful but maybe I get some new ideas that way.

With "in" I didn't try to say really "IN". I was trying to say.. playing that "lydian #9" and sound without a lot of dissonances (if I play the sharp 9 a lot in down beats it will sound dissonant). Maybe I'm not getting the "fancy" thing about the scale this way, but maybe I'm getting some new ideas.


I don't know, just thinking. Maybe extending the "bebop scale" thinking to a lot of new scales..

I think that if you play the scale and don't emphasize the #9 and #11 you are more likely to sound like you a re using chromatic approach notes since on Cmaj7, B D# F# are a half step under the triad notes. If you are playing lydian #9 then the #9 is part of the chord and I'd say therefore not really dissonant.

To me it sounds like you want to play G7alt but avoid sounding like an altered dominant?

I have never come across anybody playing something that sounded good using the bebop scale system for making lines. It always seemed to mechanical and predictable to be good music to me, but that is probably off topic and most certainly just my opinion

Jens

[micuentita]

Yes. I think it sounds more that way, too.

The idea is playing lydian #9 when the #9 is not present in the voicing. For example: Piano playing C6 (C E B A)..

I think bebop scales are a simple way to study chromatism. Then you can do what you want with that. But.. I think that's a way to internalize the chromatism thing.

[mr. beaumont]

C lydian #9

C D# E F# G A B

I'd be tempted to try something triadic...

C E G D# F# A E G B...

Inside-outside-in...

Gonna go grab a guitar.

[micuentita]

C lydian #9

C D# E F# G A B

I'd be tempted to try something triadic...

C E G D# F# A E G B...

Inside-outside-in...

Gonna go grab a guitar.

Great. I mean.. if we are thinking C ionian with chromatic notes going to the chord tones.. We don't think about the possibility of playing the triads of the scale this way. Maybe it opens new ways.

[mr. beaumont]

Reporting back.

Try it, I got a new (to me) sound I'm loving.

[Boston Joe]

I don't think the OP is talking about sounding "in" as in having all the tones be inside the chord. What I think he's talking about - and this is something I've been chasing myself - is how to play these outside sounds and make them sound "right."

Monk played a lot of "wrong" notes, and because of the way he played them, they were very obviously wrong. His phrasing sort of said, "Hey, check out this wrong note!" (So while the note sounded wrong, the artistic statement behind it made sense.) Now take a modern player like, say, Michael Brecker - he played a lot of "wrong" notes but because of the context he put them in, they make sense as melodies.

So, to me, there are two factors that help make outside stuff sound right: 1) organization - if you're using outside sounds just sort of willy-nilly, there's a good chance they're going to sound awkward. If you organize them, as with Mr. Beaumont's triadic approach, your lines will tend to be more internally consistent, and your ear will accept them as correct, and 2) rhythm - you have to play outside stuff confidently and with clear rhythmic intent. If you "wuss out" on the outside notes, they'll sound wrong.

[micuentita]

I don't think the OP is talking about sounding "in" as in having all the tones be inside the chord. What I think he's talking about - and this is something I've been chasing myself - is how to play these outside sounds and make them sound "right."

Monk played a lot of "wrong" notes, and because of the way he played them, they were very obviously wrong. His phrasing sort of said, "Hey, check out this wrong note!" (So while the note sounded wrong, the artistic statement behind it made sense.) Now take a modern player like, say, Michael Brecker - he played a lot of "wrong" notes but because of the context he put them in, they make sense as melodies.

So, to me, there are two factors that help make outside stuff sound right: 1) organization - if you're using outside sounds just sort of willy-nilly, there's a good chance they're going to sound awkward. If you organize them, as with Mr. Beaumont's triadic approach, your lines will tend to be more internally consistent, and your ear will accept them as correct, and 2) rhythm - you have to play outside stuff confidently and with clear rhythmic intent. If you "wuss out" on the outside notes, they'll sound wrong.

Great! you understood me.

I agree with the organization thing.
About "clear rhythmic intent".. i think you are right. Don't you think that playing the outside tones on up-beats will help to "hear better" my outside playing ideas? Then I think I could play those tones everywhere.

When I started playing the scales didn't sound very good, but when I started thinking about playing chord tones on down beats, It just re-organized in a good way.

I think the same could happen to the "outside" playing.


What do you think?

[Boston Joe]

Great! you understood me.

I agree with the organization thing.
About "clear rhythmic intent".. i think you are right. Don't you think that playing the outside tones on up-beats will help to "hear better" my outside playing ideas? Then I think I could play those tones everywhere.

When I started playing the scales didn't sound very good, but when I started thinking about playing chord tones on down beats, It just re-organized in a good way.

I think the same could happen to the "outside" playing.


What do you think?

Whatever helps you hear the tones in relation to the chord is a good thing. If playing them on upbeats helps, then do that. I think that's going to be different for everyone. I've been working with the kind of triadic approach that Matt talks about. For example, over a G7 chord, I'll play C# and D# major triads. That's almost all outside sounding, but the major triad is a very strong sound, so it works.

The other thing to do is listen to recordings, find an outside lick that you like, transcribe it, and use it the way it's used on the recording. Having a lick that you know will work allows you to play confidently, and will also help you to hear the sound. (And once you've internalized that lick, you'll find other ways to use it, too.)

[micuentita]

Thanks a lot!

[gsegal]

What you maybe thinking is the double augmented scale. Two augmented maj 7th arps next to each other. This is also a symmetrical scale and can be transposed in maj 3rds. Rosenwinkel uses this sound a lot.
C C# E F Ab A B C= F maj7#9