Thinking ahead while improvising a jazz guitar solo

[princeplanet]

Books, magazines, even this forum, all abound in advice regarding what to play and how to learn what to play. And that's fine, but what happens after you have 500 2-5 lines memorized, every known scale, arp, chromatic embellishing device in every key in every position? After all, just because you memorize the dictionary, it has no bearing on your ability to write the next great American Novel....

The important stage of learning Jazz has to be "putting it all together". First, gather all your raw materials, then learn to think ahead. I would think that the ultimate stage in learning is "hearing ahead" and effortlessly finding the notes you hear, but for most of us here, I would say that seems fairly advanced, especially with fast tempos or tunes with difficult changes.

So to take things back to the intermediate stage, I just wanted to hear people's thoughts on how they deal with the "thinking ahead" part, because I don't see much discussion about this. Pro's often say they don't think on the band stage, they save the thinking for the woodshed. So how do you train yourself to think in the practice room? Is it something you isolate and spend time on?

OK, I'll offer an example that I'm currently struggling with. I'm trying to construct yet another etude for the A section in Autumn Leaves, because it's a great way to practice all my memorized 2-5 stuff (lines and devices etc) for both major and minor. So I limit the challenge to say a dozen ideas for each 2-5-1 in each of 5 positions, that's 24 x 5 = 120. Fine, I spend a coupla weeks memorizing routines where I recall these in a specific order. In doing this I found that I needed to think ahead to the next idea while in the middle of the current one, particularly as each idea has a pickup of between 3 and 9 notes, combos of triplet or straight 8ths... I began realizing how bad I was at focussing on the upcoming idea, being distracted by the effort required to play the current idea. Eventually I memorize the whole routine, through sheer tenacity.

Progress? Maybe... I mean it makes my brain hurt, so it's probably a good thing, but here's the thing: When I try to randomize the ideas on the fly, even at only 200 bpm (8ths), I get stuck. Just because I can remember a routine that may last a few minutes, it hasn't really helped me access all the ideas out of the order I've memorized! Sure, If I slow it all down, or leave lots of space between phrases, I can eventually retrieve whatever my mind "targets". But great players seem to be way beyond this where the well is inexhaustible, and flawlessly stitched together. I know the aim for a lot of you is to not rely on pre-learned stuff in the first place, but I love Stitt, Bird, Jackie McLean etc styles of Bop/Hard Bop where you just know they are stitching material together so it comes out different every time, usually sounding inspired at the same time.

So, to the guys that feel they have progressed to the point where they have no trouble thinking ahead to any idea that comes to them on the fly, how did you teach yourself how to do that? Did you isolate the thinking / visualisation part as a separate exercise? Any techniques you care to share? I mean. what's the point of me memorizing all these cool ideas if I can't freely access them meaningfully in mid flight?

[NSJ]

I have not progressed to that point, but I have a simple solution that requires a lot of work. My goal is to know the FORM of the song (melody and harmonic structure) INSIDE and OUT and to be able to play it ANYWHERE on the neck, no matter where I am, no matter what the position.

In terms of pre-learning, the song has to be pre-learned, practically hard-wired to the brain, to the point there's no thinking involved.

[mr. beaumont]

I dunno...I'm not there yet...but I see glimpses.

For me, it's not about recall from some big catalog...it's knowing approaches so well that your hands can connect the dots while I'm actually hearing a melodic line.

Does that make sense? Like I hear a simple line in my head, almost real time, the "destinations." And my hands drive the car from point A to B...or for a different metaphor, like you don't have to think about how to put your clothes on, you just think about what you want to wear.

It's not a place I can tap into all the time. Sometimes the hands get ahead of the brain. Sometimes, I can turn the auto pilot off and think all melody...but when it happens for real it's great, and the stuff that comes out isn't exact licks I have committed to memory, it's "paraphrasing." When it's good I play stuff I didn't know I knew.

But it's always based on stuff I've practiced a thousand times. Super-internalized.

[princeplanet]

I have not progressed to that point, but I have a simple solution that requires a lot of work. My goal is to know the FORM of the song (melody and harmonic structure) INSIDE and OUT and to be able to play it ANYWHERE on the neck, no matter where I am, no matter what the position.

In terms of pre-learning, the song has to be pre-learned, practically hard-wired to the brain, to the point there's no thinking involved.

I agree, but knowing the form inside out won't help me with this specific problem, I don't think... The ideal is to pre hear stuff, whether it's pre learned stuff or not, I think I get that. But how the heck do you practice pre hearing ? !

I was thinking that practicing accessing pre learned stuff is an intermediate step along the road to acquiring the ability to pre hear stuff that you can easily play on the fly. But maybe the only way to access pre learned stuff is to actually be pre-hearing it! Dunno, isn't that like putting the cart in front of the horse? Maybe I should be slowing way down, but the kinds of lines I like sound and feel strange when I play them slowly. Just no vibe... it's the ol' catch 22...

[princeplanet]

I dunno...I'm not there yet...but I see glimpses.

For me, it's not about recall from some big catalog...it's knowing approaches so well that your hands can connect the dots while I'm actually hearing a melodic line.

Does that make sense? Like I hear a simple line in my head, almost real time, the "destinations." And my hands drive the car from point A to B...or for a different metaphor, like you don't have to think about how to put your clothes on, you just think about what you want to wear.

It's not a place I can tap into all the time. Sometimes the hands get ahead of the brain. Sometimes, I can turn the auto pilot off and think all melody...but when it happens for real it's great, and the stuff that comes out isn't exact licks I have committed to memory, it's "paraphrasing." When it's good I play stuff I didn't know I knew.

But it's always based on stuff I've practiced a thousand times. Super-internalized.

But are you talking about creating melodies, or stitching together memorized stuff? Melody invention is an entirely different skill set, I'm thinking, and possibly the supreme goal. And yes, the better we know the form or the tune, the better we can just trust our instincts and wing melodies. Heck, even I can "feel" my way slowly through familiar tunes without thinking about what notes I'm playing, just trying to play simple things that I'm hearing. But that's worlds away from what, say, Wes could do! Surely before you get to the "winging it" stage you gotta put yourself through some serious drills! Know and practice a million things that technically and theoretically fit, many of them difficult, then just wait for them to "come to you" in the middle of solos...

But how do we make them appear in that split second when feeling our way to the next chord? Surely we have to practice them often enough that they are easily accessed, pre thought and/or pre heard a bar or 2 ahead of time... Is it a problem of task division? For example, there are some things I have internalized so well that I can carry on a conversation while playing them. That obviously infers that my mind/brain is totally free to contemplate whatever, without disturbing the execution of what I'm currently playing. From this it might follow that the problem is right there- you gotta know all your lines that well, that you can free resources in your brain to think ahead to any number of ideas.

Even so, let's say I can do this (which I can't, not for very much anyway), do I, in a split second, shuffle through a hundred options and finally select one to fit in seamlessly with the steady flow of uptempo 8th notes? Or do I just let whatever comes, come? That's what worries me, it seems too undisciplined that at an intermediate stage of learning to improvise I should just yield to the first thing that comes to me. That strikes me as a luxury only the advanced improvisors should afford themselves. That first thing that comes to me might end up being the only thing that comes to me, everytime!

So again, I'm wondering how we should be teaching ourselves to access all we have learned, so that eventually, after many years of this discipline, the flood of ideas that "just come" will be numerous and varied enough to nourish us for the rest of our playing years!

[targuit]

Although this subject is, well, a bit subjective, my two cents. If improvising off a tune like Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, a tune I was playing last night, I "improvise" the arrangement on the fly essentially by focusing on essential elements and trusting my subconscious to take the wheel. That is, as I'm playing to a metronome, I focus on the melody and the bass, especially in terms of voice leading. Secondarily, I focus on the "inner harmony" lines. If I'm playing off a lead sheet, for the most part I like the lead sheet to be the melody, the bass and above the staff often the written chord, like Am7b5, which reminds me of little harmonic accents in certain phrases, like b9ths or 13ths, for example. Keep it simple.

Jay

[princeplanet]

Hmm, I'm guessing not too many reading this thread are the least bit interested in Hard Bop at burning tempos! Don't get me wrong, I wanna learn how to make beautiful melodies against everything one day too, I just thought I might work my way up to that particular goal a bit further down the track....

Been thinking how the Bop burners gathered their chops. Maybe it happened slowly and organically. Maybe to begin with they only had 5 or 10 ideas they knew inside out, in their sleep, to begin with, then slowly added a couple of new ideas every month or so. Maybe trying to "cram" hundreds of ideas in a short time frame won't cut it for us slow witted types? .... When I hear the evolution of a player like J McLean, I think I hear him snowballing as the years went by, take '55 to '65, every year there was growth. But then contrast the snowball to the "Cannonball", now that muthaf*cker seemed fully developed real early, same with Rollins, Getz and quite a few others.

Genius I guess, no point aiming that high. eh?

[Guitarzen]

what happens after you have 500 2-5 lines memorized, every known scale, arp, chromatic embellishing device in every key in every position? After all, just because you memorize the dictionary, it has no bearing on your ability to write the next great American Novel....

This is the crux of your problem, you need to learn to be creative. One important lesson I always try to impart to my students is that a high level improvisor can make an interesting, moving solo with just a few notes. A low level improvisor cannot make an interesting solo with an infinite number of notes. And in fact one of the signs of a lack of creativity is the compulsion to squeeze in as many notes per bar as you possibly can, because you feel the number of notes indicates your playing skill. (i.e. more notes = better playing skill). All of the things that comprise creativity can be difficult to teach, maybe some things are impossible to teach, but to simplify in terms of improvising it just means the ability to play one note or chord a hundred different ways, instead of playing a hundred different notes or chords. For the record, I've never played a memorized 2-5-1 line on purpose. Yes, they tend to come out sometimes anyways, but I don't consciously try to fit memorized lines over changes, that has never worked for me. It's not really improvising anyways. That's not to say that memorized patterns are not a part of improvising, but not in the way you are trying to do it. Just like when you have a conversation using memorized words and grammar, but you don't actually use memorized sentences and paragraphs do you? Why would you think that would work for jazz?

First, gather all your raw materials, then learn to think ahead. I would think that the ultimate stage in learning is "hearing ahead"

It doesn't work that way for me. My best playing is usually more along the lines of "stream of consciousness", and my "thinking" matches the exact place I am at for the moment. I know my scales and arps well enough that I have complete faith in my ability to instantly go to the current change, so no need to think ahead. Again, your concept here is that you want to pre-plan what you are going to play, it just doesn't work. Thinking ahead or thinking behind both don't work because you are not completely in the moment of where you are now.

I'm trying to construct yet another etude for the A section in Autumn Leaves, because it's a great way to practice all my memorized 2-5 stuff (lines and devices etc) for both major and minor. So I limit the challenge to say a dozen ideas for each 2-5-1 in each of 5 positions, that's 24 x 5 = 120. Fine, I spend a coupla weeks memorizing routines where I recall these in a specific order.

Same problem, just rephrased in another way. I don't think there is anything wrong with using etudes to train your fingers to move in different and better ways, but the danger here is that you are really just trying to set up a bunch of preplanned lines for when you perform. You can of course use preplanned lines to perform, but we call this classical music, not jazz.

You are definitely over thinking the process. Your obsessive thinking and planning is keeping you from reaching the higher levels of free flowing creative improvisation - which is what you really crave. The key words here are relax and let go. Study Zen for a while and you will understand perfectly what I've been talking about here. In a nutshell Zen is in large part the study of how we let our compulsion to over think everything ruin things that would come naturally if we just let them, and learning how to relax the mind so we don't do this.

[mr. beaumont]

Do you think any body's pre - hearing new 8th note lines at 300bpm and recreating them note for note on the fly?

I think players rend to pre hear more of a "shape." A general melodic contour...A few specific "touchstone" notes...and with enough practice, the brain can fire off connections..The player hears "Bb, A, C, F stretched over two or so bars and the subconscious fills in the spaces between.

At least that's how I feel when I'm having a moment where I'm really feeling it. I imagine as time goes on ill hear more detail too...it comes with time and experience...think of how much practical, real world experience McLean was getting during those years...

[Stevebol]

What helped me a great deal was to start looking at a line over a 2-5-1 as a sentence. A sentence is a collection of words. A closer look at the words, meaning about 4-8 notes, has opened things up for me. Along with that it's good to look at phrasing. I think guitarists are natually good at phrasing if we allow ourselves to be. When looking at shorter fragments of lines you can't go wrong with Bird. As far as phrasing I'm knocked out by Hank Mobley who is sort of a recent discovery for me. 'This I Dig of You' has it all. Great song, amazing phrasing, originality, technique. Everything.

To improvise you have to come up with a thought process that works for you. For me, right now, it's a matter of taking short fragments of 2-5-1's, either mine or someone else's, combing that with my own licks and trying to up my game on phrasing. Also playing the same thing with different fingerings at different places on the neck.

I guess that would not be a thought process. Mm...OK. This is why improv can't be taught. You have to start breaking rules to do it. Relaxation and confidence helps.

[princeplanet]

Just like when you have a conversation using memorized words and grammar, but you don't actually use memorized sentences and paragraphs do you? Why would you think that would work for jazz?




In a nutshell Zen is in large part the study of how we let our compulsion to over think everything ruin things that would come naturally if we just let them, and learning how to relax the mind so we don't do this.

Well actually, I think I do use memorized sentences, but not paragraphs. The memorized words and sentences are always nuanced differently and usually suffice to express what I wish to. In fact, the more memorized words and sentences I have at my disposal, the better I think I express myself.

Using the language analogy further (which I always think is flawed somehow, but let's persist), I'm sure there is a part of my brain/mind that is thinking ahead to the next word or sentence, even as I utter the current one. While I'm typing this I'm already thinking og the next line or lines. Being Zen about writing or playing is fine, and another interesting way that people use to improvise, and I appreciate that. But I heard a recording of Clifford Brown warming up which was going through his repertoire of pre learned lines, hundreds of them. I feel certain Bird acquired a similar set of ideas, infact Owens counted 200 or 300 of them in his famed analysis. In the book "Thinking in Jazz", which I hope to read soon, apparently the message from many of the greats is the same- acquire a ton of "language". I assume of the pre learned variety.

I know that it's 2013 and most of the Jazz world has learned a thing or 2 since 1965, but I'm mainly interested, right now, in playing in the style of those guys from back then, and earlier. I figure not too many were not drawing from a pool of pre learned devices and ideas. And with the possible exception of the MJQ, none of that old stuff came off sounding like Classical music!

[princeplanet]

Do you think any body's pre - hearing new 8th note lines at 300bpm and recreating them note for note on the fly?

I think players rend to pre hear more of a "shape." A general melodic contour...A few specific "touchstone" notes...and with enough practice, the brain can fire off connections..The player hears "Bb, A, C, F stretched over two or so bars and the subconscious fills in the spaces between.

At least that's how I feel when I'm having a moment where I'm really feeling it. I imagine as time goes on ill hear more detail too...it comes with time and experience...think of how much practical, real world experience McLean was getting during those years...

Maybe not pre hearing totally new material at that tempo, but pre hearing "sentences" like we do when we talk quickly, maybe... And yeah, I think the "shape" thing is the best I can hope for, a vague outline that becomes clearer during the execution... Also, I think you're right about time and experience being a factor with the older cats, the "street"... but then I recall hearing Rollins say last year that a lot of his friends when he was young were exposed to the same experiences and opportunities, but that along with the desire was still not enough for most of them to "cut it".

Maybe the thinking part , the lightning responsive reflex to an idea, or someone else's playing, maybe that just can't be trained or developed to the high level that the greats were able to obtain. Maybe it's just raw talent.....

How come I've never seen a book titled "How to think fast in Jazz"?

[mr. beaumont]

Do you prehear sentences when you talk, though?

[princeplanet]

What helped me a great deal was to start looking at a line over a 2-5-1 as a sentence. A sentence is a collection of words. A closer look at the words, meaning about 4-8 notes, has opened things up for me. Along with that it's good to look at phrasing. I think guitarists are natually good at phrasing if we allow ourselves to be. When looking at shorter fragments of lines you can't go wrong with Bird. As far as phrasing I'm knocked out by Hank Mobley who is sort of a recent discovery for me. 'This I Dig of You' has it all. Great song, amazing phrasing, originality, technique. Everything.

To improvise you have to come up with a thought process that works for you. For me, right now, it's a matter of taking short fragments of 2-5-1's, either mine or someone else's, combing that with my own licks and trying to up my game on phrasing. Also playing the same thing with different fingerings at different places on the neck.

I guess that would not be a thought process. Mm...OK. This is why improv can't be taught. You have to start breaking rules to do it. Relaxation and confidence helps.

Funny, been rediscovering Hank myself of late, Soul Station and Roll Call. I used to find his tone weak (which is cool to his admirers of course), but when you try to play his lines you realize how cool the phrasing is, as well as just really hip choices with everything he does.

Having smaller chunks for the sake of recombining with other fragments is a good idea. I think my chunks are too big, I'm blowing big chunks!

[Stevebol]

Do you prehear sentences when you talk, though?

I do occasionally. I think it's called acting.

[princeplanet]

Do you prehear sentences when you talk, though?

Great question! It's pretty hard to put your finger on it, dontcha think? I mean it's a big question for Linguistics / Semantics / Semiotics etc etc Thought vs language. Language is the slowed down expression of a thought. When I say I pre-hear a sentence, I obviously don't pre hear the words individually, but as a kind of compressed "thought", or your vague outline kinda thing. Maybe it starts out vague, but when you utter it, it unfolds precisely, perhaps fully in the manner you intended. How many neurons can fire in a split second?

Improv just cant be in the moment, there's a "look ahead" buffer.... it may be a split second for some, it maybe a coupla bars for others. I've been feeling for some time now that I need to forge better communications with this buffer. Damn brain, why can't I just upgrade the RAM ?

[princeplanet]

I do occasionally. I think it's called acting.

I know you're kidding, but that kind of pre hearing is rote reciting, acting out script is like playing classical (or any) music from a score. Improvised speech on the other hand might be a little like Jazz, maybe...

[Stevebol]

Funny, been rediscovering Hank myself of late, Soul Station and Roll Call. I used to find his tone weak (which is cool to his admirers of course), but when you try to play his lines you realize how cool the phrasing is, as well as just really hip choices with everything he does.

Having smaller chunks for the sake of recombining with other fragments is a good idea. I think my chunks are too big, I'm blowing big junks!

Try stealing just some notes on the 5 chord and fill in the rest with whatever. Here's a good thread for that.

Interesting II V I

Play sparsely on the 2 and 1 chords. See if you can modify what's happening on the 5's.

[princeplanet]

Try stealing just some notes on the 5 chord and fill in the rest with whatever. Here's a good thread for that.

Interesting II V I

Play sparsely on the 2 and 1 chords. See if you can modify what's happening on the 5's.

I dig, and not just with these (pretty cool ) lines, but with my own. Break them into bits and get good at re combining to create endless variations. Now that should only take 4 or 5 years! ......

[Stevebol]

I dig, and not just with these (pretty cool ) lines, but with my own. Break them into bits and get good at re combining to create endless variations. Now that should only take 4 or 5 years! ......

Lol. 4-5 years is about right, probably. I been on this for about 8-12 months. I'll never be good at set arrangements so I have to try to do something well.

[Guitarzen]

Well actually, I think I do use memorized sentences

My point was you don't plan what sentences you are going to use before you have a conversation with someone.

[AlsoRan]

Glad I decided to check out your thread.

I carefully read through it and I find I am in a similar quandary - trying to put it all together with hopes of getting up in Bebop terriroty. Sonny Stitt, Pat Martino - that's the kind of improvising speed that I am after as well, eventually.

This forum has shown me that at those speeds, improvising may take on a different thought process and many of the solos seemed to be partially memorized such that if you saw someone like Sonny Stitt play a song 50 times, you would note a lot of similarities. I wonder, is it because most of it is memorized as I believe, or is it just because that is consistently the way he views and interprets the song?

Also, I too have a problem with the singing analogy, at least in the Bebop speed zone because it is rare that someone can sing words, possibly even notes, at 340bpm. Your words/notes would slur together, which I guess would be OK as long as your finger is actually hitting the notes.

When Bud Powell is heard humming along with his fast lines, surely he is predominantly humming his target notes, and approaching them in different ways with various sequences, right?

One thing seems to be certain, you have to put in a lot of time. I read that Parker purportedly practiced 11-16 hours a day for 3 or 4 years (Here is a humorous discussion of it on a different forum). http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...Daily-Practice


In Jimmy Bruno's biography, it states he practiced/played 8 to 10 hours a day.

[Guitarzen]

if you saw someone like Sonny Stitt play a song 50 times, you would note a lot of similarities. I wonder, is it because most of it is memorized as I believe, or is it just because that is consistently the way he views and interprets the song?

I think it's more like habit. Very different from playing a memorized solo.

[henryrobinett]

To me it's a lot like driving a car. You are in present time driving along. But you know that up ahead is a stop sign and a Dunkin' Donnuts on the right and the next block a Bank of America. You don't worry about it. You don't even know why you know this. You know in three blocks you have to turn left. But you're still driving the car RIGHT NOW. You're not thinking about the gas pedal or the steering wheel or where the turn signal is or how soon before you have to turn it on. None of those TECHNICAL things are a concern to you. You KNOW them.

In playing I'm not concerned with thinking ahead. I'm concerned with playing NOW. I know that there's a Bb7b9 chord leading to Eb four bars ahead. I'm aware of it, but I'm not concerned. It's there in the road ahead. I'm driving the guitar now.

[mr. beaumont]

Yep...If you're still thinking about technical things, you don't know the tune.

There's a reason a cat like Lee Konitz still plays "Angel Eyes."