Modes for ii's in Confirmation

[jster]

I got this "lick" that I'm working on. I use a lot of chord tones. But for this thing, I need some 2s and 6s also. But which 2 to play? More importantly, which 6 to play?

So consider Confirmation:

Fma7 - - - | Em7b5 - A7b9 - | Dm7 - G7 - | Cm7 - F7 -

Bb7 - - --- | Eb7 - ---D7 ----- |G7 - - - -----|Gm7 - C7 -

Are these the best choices?

Fma7 - - - | Em7b5 - A7b9 - | Dm7 - G7 - | Cm7 - F7 -

----------| Eloc - Aharmindom| Daeol Gmix| Cdor Fmix

Bb7 - - - | Eb7 - D7 ---------- |G7 - - - ---- |Gm7 - C7 -

-----------| -------Dmixb6 -----|---------------|--------------------


I left some blank because we don't need to talk about them. I believe these are the most inside choices.

So:

-Do people like the Daeol over the Dm7? Or do most jazzers just go dorian there?

-What about the Dmixb6? That's the inside choice. But if we are going to do that, don't we want to do the same thing over the Eb7 also?

-I am really just trying to figure out how to fill in the 2's and 6's. This is a super legato blowing riff for the last chorus that goes through all the changes and the 2s and 6s are just passing notes. But still to flat them or not to flat them? It's a question for the 7th chords and the related im7 chords. For bar 2, it seems mandatory and right to flat the 2 and not the 6 on the Em7b5 and to flat the 2 and the 6 on the A7b9. For the other chords, I'm not so sure.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

(Title needs some editing, but I can't do it.)

[Spirit59]

Coming at a tune like Confirmation from a modal perspective is an exercise in masochism, with a resulting payoff of most likely sounding like dookie.

[RyanM]

A good place to start is Parker's solo in the omnibook.

[jster]

I already have my damned lick. I'm just trying to fill in a few notes.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah I dunno. Playing a bop tune like Confirmation modally I don't think is the best idea. Sorry for not answering your questions.

[jster]

OK, I am playing mostly chord tones. Now I need a note between 3 and 1. And I need another note between 7 and 5. Sometimes there is a choice. I'm not playing it modally. They are just some passing tones! I already had a fight with the wife about nothing. So you guys better be nice to me!

[jster]

And I wouldn't even be bothering you all with this, but this shit is so happening, I need to work out all the kinks so I can tear it up on the last chorus. Now, just tell me to flat or not to flat the 2's and 6's and nobody gets hurt!

[henryrobinett]

OK, I am playing mostly chord tones. Now I need a note between 3 and 1. And I need another note between 7 and 5. Sometimes there is a choice. I'm not playing it modally. They are just some passing tones! I already had a fight with the wife about nothing. So you guys better be nice to me!

Lol!! Ok, ok!! Well there's not many choices between 3 and 1. How about 2? 6 fits perfectly between 7 and 5. What am I missing?

[AmundLauritzen]

For two-fives, I almost exclusively go for Dorian when I want an unaltered sound. The major sixth on Dm7 for instance, B, becomes the major third, the most important note on the G7 when it is a secondary dominant, like it is in this case.

That's because the third on a dom chord in itself is a strong sound, but even stronger when it is not part of the key!

I also like to tritone sub two fives in minor conversion. For Dm7 G7 I'd think D dorian to Ab dorian.
Or minor third sub them. D dorian to F dorian.

But I would not prefer that for Confirmation.

That's because one bar two-fives require concepts that cut to the chase. You want to spell out that change very effectively. A scale based approach doesn't facilitate that.
Especially alterations can mess up the movement in the line.

I conceptualize a lot around upper structure arpeggios and chord tones with enclosures for II-V's.

For Dm7 G7, the arpeggios that help outline it in particular are Fmaj7 and Bm7b5. These upper structures avoid making you sound like you are running arpeggios so much, which could happen if you string together two root position arpeggios in a row, like Dm7 and G7.

Here are some examples on chord tone based licks that outline Dm7 G7 for one bar. They can be transposed to fit the other II-V's in the tune:

Dm7 to Bm7b5( Bm7b5/G = G9)

------------------5------
-------------3-6----------
------2-5-4----------------
----3--------------------
--5----------------------
------------------------

Fmaj7 leading to a G triad

----------------3---------
--------------3-------
-----2-5-3-4-------------
---3--------------------
------------------------
-------------------------

Around Dm7 emplyoing a "bebop scale" kind of chromatic movement from G to F.
Notice the B, it's dorian in nature.

--------5-8-7-5------------
------6----------8-7-6-----
----7----------------------
---------------------------
--------------------------
--------------------------

These are just off the top of my head. It's basically how I'd think for non diatonic II-V's(secondary doms),
keeping it very simple and maintaining direction with the lines to keep momentum from one change to the next.

So yeah, if I had to condense it down to scale thinking, I almost always think Dorian for II-V's. But the scale is just a picture on the fretboard. A visual "frame" that all the actual thinking fits into: my eyes and ears are mostly fixed around upper structure arps, chord tones and enclosures.

That's how I think of it. I hope that gives you some new ideas, and I hope I answered your question at least a little

[jster]

Thanks Amund for the help with bar 3. And I'll look in detail at your upper structure stuff once I get this lick down.

Just for the record, there is no danger of me ever sounding like I am running scales. I'm an arpeggio machine gun. I define chords the way Webster defines words. But I gotta add some non-chord tones. So, which modes are best. Then after that I add chromatic stuff. But like I say, this is a lick-riff-pattern that I run through all the changes and for every bar in the stinking tune I need to know whether to play 2 or b2 and I need to know whether to play 6 or b6!

What about the D7 in bar 6. Do we like mixo flat sixo or just mix?

If this keeps up, I'm going to pay the most famous dude I can find to tell me the answers! What's Metheny's number?

[Vladan]

1st part dharm min and g diminished
2nd part Eb major and g blues

[AmundLauritzen]

From my experience bar 6 is usually a straight II-V. Eb7 is a sub for A7, which again is a sub for Am7 since you can (in theory, or principially) make any chord a dom 7 when there is a fourth movement, especially when the next chord is a dom7.

So I wouldn't worry about the Eb7 at all, D7 is where it's at harmonically.

The harmonic minor option is good on the VI7 because the scalewise movement always pulls well towards the II.
G harmonic minor, that'd be D phrygian dominant I think. I'm not familiar with mixo b6, so I can't comment on that.

D altered gives even more pull, but it has to be very deliberate and the licks has to cut to the chase.

I'll give an example of how I use G harmonic minor in a situation like this in the context of a complete line.

All 8ths. Try this for bars 5-8:


Bb7 Am7 D7 G7 Gm7 C7
---------------------|---------------------|-------------------|--------------
--------------------|----------------------|-------------------|--------------
-----------5--------|----------------------|-------------------|--------------
----8-6-7--5-------|-5-7-4--------------|--------7----------|----------7-5---
--------------8-7-8|--------6-5----------|---5-8---7-5------|-----5-8-------
---------------------|-----------8-5-6----|-7------------8-7-|-6-8-----------

I use only a fragment of D phrygian dominant, descending the most important part for D7, from the F#(3rd). Following G harmonic minor down linearly the next note I land on is the b9 and then the root. Then C, the 7th.
These four notes, this movement, is oftentimes all I use of that harmonic minor option. And in one bar II-Vs, I have to condense things down to the strongest movement just like that. Coincidentally, this little movement sets me up for the next chord so I can voice-lead it smoothly:
Continuing, I am only a half step away from B, the third of G7. From the B, I build Bm7b5 to create a G9 sound.
Then I exploit the C7 bebop scale, but I just think of the chromatic movement C, B, Bb so I am set up to start on the Bb, the 7th of C7 which is the launching point of a bebop cliche that outlines a II-V.


For the altered scale on D7, I could do something like this, bars 6-8:

Am7 D7 G7 Gm7 C7
--10---------------------------|------------------------|---------------12-10--|
-----13-11--------------------|-----------10-----------|-------10-13----------|
------------11-10-------------|-------10----9--------9|-10-12----------------|
--------------------13-12-10-|-9-12----------11-12--|-----------------------|
--------------------------------|-------------------------|----------------------|
--------------------------------|-------------------------|----------------------|

I hope this makes sense, and I hope you can pardon my sloppy tabbing.

[GuyBoden]

Personally, I'd re-harmonize the whole song as a model tune, if was going to play modally.

[M-ster]

I already have my damned lick. I'm just trying to fill in a few notes.

Can we see the d*mned lick and which few notes are troubling you?

[jster]

I can't show you the whole thing. Then you'll be stealing my stuff and putting it on youtube. Hehe. But here is a little bit. First beat, we got a 321 triplet. So then I need to know whether to flat the 2.

[jster]

It's all good anyway. I think tomorrow I am going to record the different permutations and see what the differences are. I kind of wanted to figure out what to play before playing it, but I might as well just work on the whole family of possibilities. Most of it was really whether to flat the 6 on the min7 chord and as Amund pointed out, jazzers go Dorian as a default. And there still is the issue of the mixb6 on that 7 chord. But there I imagine that is a scale jazzers don't really use. I never should have put "modes" in the title.

[Vladan]

Then you put it on YTso we canhear it?

[henryrobinett]

So I'm not understanding. Are you writing a song or writing a solo or are you just studying possibilities?

[jster]

I was just too lazy to do anything one day so I started playing along with the BIAB Confirmation. I actually have so many things going on, I actually play be-bop when I'm procrastinating! True story. Well anyway, I was pretty happy with how it sounded. I don't know any bebop licks, and it didn't have any chromaticisms. But it had a pretty good feel and was at the right tempo. (And Henry, I remember a post where you said the feel was the most important thing about be-bop!) Then at the end I started playing triplets the whole way through and that sounded best of all. But I wasn't sure whether to play 6 or b6 on that D7 on bar 6, for example.

[Spirit59]

I actually play be-bop when I'm procrastinating!

I don't know any bebop licks,

..

[jtizzle]

As others have said, I wouldn't think of it modally. Just try out different notes. Even if you're playing chord tones, the answer isn't thinking about what scales the chord tones belong in. Just think about the chord tones, and play around them. If you're trying to get from the 7 to the 5, there's about 5 notes in different combinations that you can try to get almost infinite possibilities. When playing bop, you really need to forget about scales. Most of the time, a chromatic approach note is your answer.

Now go help your wife out with the dishes before she yells at you again, haha.

[jasaco]

Why not just ask your ear which one it likes better in that context: b2 or nat2, b6 or nat6? Probably one sounds better to you than the other and, if not, then mix them up for greater interest.