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PS - David, I did find a version of the Brower Prelude and Fugue. Just listened once but it was nice. I admit to finding Brower somewhat overrated as a composer. Are we allowed to say that? If not, I take it back.
As I was playing along to the video, a few things crossed my mind. One, I liked the Fugue better than the Prelude, including that ending in F#. I wondered if Brower knew his CST? And how much easier it is to play this music given that you can simply sight read the sheet music without chanting the modes in each measure. And man, Leo sure could play the Chaconne beautifully. Oddly in Ebm, though he must have detuned that half step from Em. Beautiful rendition.
And I must echo the words of the great Jim Raney, pointing to his ear, replies and I'm paraphrasing, "In the end, you have to hear it here." He talks about his experience of improvisation. Great comment. I happen to agree. But it is a personal opinion expressed both by Raney and the far humbler...moi! Personal opinion. Not an autocratic dictum. Check out that video - pretty intriguing. Thanks, Randall! (How do you find these things...!)
As for the deep nexus between my reference to contemporary composers such as Britten, Martin, and Johann, I was reflecting that much beautiful, soulful and contemporary (if not bebop) music was created without much use of CST. (Yes, Maude, it's true!) Music with a melodic theme and harmonies that "tell a story" or bring you to a 'higher place'. Twelve tones. Bach did occasionally score a m7b5....but still stuck in his hackneyed 'functional harmony'.
Whoa! I was listening to the Brower Chaconne performance as I wrote. When I looked at the end, I saw sheet music in Eb. Now that just seems so odd. I still think he detuned a half step. Oh, yeah - you can tell with the final note, an open Eb. I learned it Em though I'd like to mess with it in Dm. And with my touch lately, a mess it is.Last edited by targuit; 07-20-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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07-20-2013 05:36 PM
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overrated as a composer compared to whom doc?
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Well, I guess I usually post here in an attempt not to be a jerk, but I had a productive day so I'm not going to bite my tongue so much. Sorry for the hypocrisy in that I sometimes I try to play peace-maker, but this is pissing me off.
Targuit, when I post here it is usually out of the interest in either learning something new, or sharing something that I think is valuable that I think will help somebody else. If not either of those, I at least try steer the discussion in the direction of being more helpful to the OP or anybody trying to learn.
Do you actually have anything to contribute to this discussion? Do you know what chord scale theory is and how to use it? Are you aware of a conversation that's been going on for decades about the usefulness (or lack thereof) of 'thinking' in terms of scales vs arpeggios vs door #3?
This forum can be a fantastic place for learning and musical growth, and I think a lot of us get challenged at times and it might feel like shit but sometimes it's important. It has happened to me a lot and has made me change my approach to certain subjects.
So, back on topic, do you have anything substantial to say about the use of chord scale theory while improvising over jazz tunes?
If you want to play the 'put up or shut up' game then we all might as well have that pissing contest where we post clips - not the slightest bit interested in that, sorry.
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Hey, I have an idea! Why don't each of record a bebopish version of the Chaconne?
I was just foolin' around in the key of Em with a swing approach at a moderate tempo. Those who wish can use their CST skills and us 'traditionalists' can muddle through 'in our own sweet way...."
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Can you describe the organizational concepts used by these composersAs for the deep nexus between my reference to contemporary composers such as Britten, Martin, and Johann, I was reflecting that much beautiful, soulful and contemporary (if not bebop) music was created without much use of CST.
and the possible implications for the contemporary improvisor?
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Hey, I have an idea! Why don't each of record a bebopish version of the Chaconne?
I was just foolin' around in the key of Em with a swing approach at a moderate tempo. Those who wish can use their CST skills and us 'traditionalists' can muddle through 'in our own sweet way...."
Jake - an edit, as I just saw your post. Sorry if you got angry, but you did 'throw the first punch' - didn't you? Anyway, regardless, I apologize if my opinion offended you. Frankly, the best contribution to the thread has been by Randall and Bako, with the wit to post those beautiful videos of the music I just alluded to.
If you can learn something deeply profound and lasting from CST, more power to you. And good luck, as I can't understand much of that John Stowell video I was talking about... and I thought learning classical guitar was difficult. So I may not be as much a fan of CST as you or others here may be. But my opinion is mine alone... and maybe Jim Raney on a good day. Peace, Jake. It's only music...
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In short, right now - no - it's almost dinnertime. Seriously, I would have to give that some deep thought, and I think it comes down to what Jim Raney said. Which is that one must learn harmony before you discover your originality. And as I see it, we can all learn our grammar properly, but only some of us will become poets.
Originally Posted by bako
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If bebop is enough for someone, I can see why they wouldn't be interested in CST. But there's been a lot of water under the bridge since the advent of bop and I personally take the "leave no stone unturned" approach in my musical journey.
One tired-ass paradigm that is getting really old for me is the picture of the poor befuddled improvisor, who we see sweating bullets, in total confusion during his attempt at leveraging CST during an improv session. A different scale for every chord, the poor guy is the epitome of who we don't won't to end up like.
Our poor subject is having a hard time because he didn't do his homework. He didn't put the time in, in the practice room, where, surprise! - music can be completely frozen in time, allowing the diligent to search for the gold that lives in chord scales, different penatonics, hexatonics (triad pairs) - all manner of subsets of the 12 tones we have available to us can be plugged into the music and the results can be turned into - are you ready for this? SOUND! Real, honest to goodness sound that we can REMEMBER and add to our vocabulary!
In this way, we will avoid starring in a scene like our poor confused subject, who didn't do the requisite work, and resorts to calculating on the bandstand.
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Targuit, I'm not an advocate or opponent of "using" CST, but I do advocate that anybody who wants to engage in a discussion about it ("it" being anything at all) should probably know what "it" is. It seems like part of what you're saying is that since you never learned it or were able to understand it, it must not be useful. I still do not understand what you are attempting to contribute to this discussion.
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Well, hopefully the dust has settled and the combatants have laid down their guitars.
As to Bako's question of the relevance of composers like Britten, Martin, and JS Bach to contemporary improvisers, I would suggest when listening to their respective works the prime 'lesson' is one of theme and development toward the end of 'telling a story' or touching a deep chord within the listener.
Britten's famous Nocturnal is based upon a theme of John Dowland, which is articulated in the last portion of the eight or so sections which develop that theme. Britten achieves a spell binding coherence using the harmonic tools that have always been available to composers for centuries. While this music is obviously not 'improvisational' per se, improvisation is a kind of extemporaneous composition. How each performer wishes to structure his 'composition' is up to you, but to my ears developing a theme, be it a motif or other organizing principle, is key to good improv.
I can appreciate that modal organization of tonality is one way to structure an improvisation, but I think it must be terribly hard to play in that way. I admit that my own approach is more akin to trying to express what is in my heart rather than to impress a listener with my command of some arcane overarching scalar principle. Twelve tones are available always to everyone. Bach was capable of making magic in an 'old school' way. Britten sounds more contemporary than Dowland, yet the connection is there.
If you want, consider my reluctance to worship at the altar of CST as my personal weakness - Lord knows, I have a few.
But if you have the capacity to utilize CST in a coherent way to reach down inside yourself and create a thing of beauty, more power to you.
As Shakespeare wrote, "Life is but a stage full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" or something to that effect. I'm sure my time on this stage is drawing inexorably to its close. So I'm content to organize the twelve tones in my playing according to the music I hear in my head and in my heart. And even that ain't easy.
As far as a contribution to the discussion on CST, I will link the one video of John Stowell's instruction on using CST that I reference earlier. I listened intently to it, but it really gave me a headache. Likely my failing. Hope you fare better. Peace.
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If you can understand and follow what Mr. Stowell is doing here, I hope this will be considered a positive contribution to the discussion.
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Mr. Stowell is simply introducing some lovely sounds that your ear might really like. That's all. You can call it CST or you can just call it new sound options.
I think what used to confuse me about CST, is that I thought these scales were mandates rather than suggestions. Furthermore, I was under the erroneous impression that you couldn't add other notes into the mix. So for example, I thought when using a melodic minor over a ii chord, that in addition to the #7 that is part of a melodic minor scale, you couldn't add a b7......or for that matter any of the 12 notes of the chromatic scale. I am only recently coming to the understanding that it is not necessarily a rigid system.Last edited by srlank; 07-21-2013 at 02:54 AM.
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Why even bring this up? Is there someone here guilty of this? Originally Posted by targuit
BTW - Mr. Stowell was a guest in my house a while back and I can assure you that both of our intentions were to express the music that was in our hearts with no thoughts of "impressing a listener with our command of some arcane overarching scalar principle."Last edited by Spirit59; 07-21-2013 at 03:32 AM. Reason: addition
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Originally Posted by srlank
Yes! And just one of many options from which a musician can fluidly switch between...
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You guys do parse every word for signs of blasphemy! Spirit, there is a sense that CST is a kind of secret society arcane "keys to the kingdom" kind of thing. Look, I know it's just scales! And I know that John is a fine player who doesn't chant to himself as he improvises. But there is a kind of smug subtle implication that suggests that CST is the 'the next step in evolution'. Tell it to Joe Pass. Or to Jim Raney. Originally Posted by Spirit59
It's not about "guilt or innocence". It's called "different strokes for different folks". As I said, there used to something called 'freedom of expression and opinion' in this country. If you don't worship at the altar, you must either be a cretin or an incompetent reactionary. I do not care one whit whether you create your improve using CST or Taro cards.
I expressed my opinion regarding the value of CST for me. If it is a valid tool for you, go for it. But permit me to dissent or at least to go my own way. Orthodoxy is the last refuge of the inept.
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Coming from who? Someone that matters? It certainly isn't a prevailing attitude. Originally Posted by targuit
Sounds like you let your ego get a little bruised...
Look, if the particular flavor of jazz that you enjoy playing doesn't require or lend itself to CST, then you needn't concern yourself with it, right? I'm certainly not of the opinion that more modern jazz is any better than older forms. CST is just another tool...
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Well, Spirit, when it comes to playing music, my ego is doing just fine, thanks. But I don't much appreciate being taken to the woodshed for expressing an opinion that happens to coincide with Jim Raney or Joe Pass. By no means do I put myself in their elite sphere of achievement. But, if I opine that I think that Allen Holdsworth's music has less thematic coherence than Bach, it's an opinion.
And if you or anyone else need CST to produce a decent melody or simply want to organize your musical thought that way - FINE. It is the height of arrogance for someone to suggest that if CST is not your thing, then you either
- don't understand it, or
- you are some reactionary troglodyte.
If you don't like my opinion, then you must surely think Jim Raney is a clod as well. Did you listen to his comments? He suggested that Stan Getz played almost entirely by ear with his natural talent. If he didn't worship at the altar of CST, does that invalidate his immense musical ability? I hope the answer to that question should be clear and obvious. There are only twelve tones in Western music. If you need a roadmap to figure what note to play in your solo or what the twelve options are, knock yourself out. Frankly, I don't.
Now I've wasted enough time on this discussion. Time to go back to my next project - transforming some Bach pieces into swing! Sure to be a best seller on the adult contemporary charts. Poor Johann - just wasn't enlightened, was he? Peace. Over and ....OUT.
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Yikes. There's a lot of poop in this swimming pool. I've noticed a lot of that lately.
Desire to drink. Need to dump. Maybe not the best mix.
David
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All this just to play a bunch of Tin pan Ally tunes!..........
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don't butcher shakespeare in your wrathful outpouring, for pity's sake!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
a working understanding of modern scales and their application and implications can open doors...see reg's many posts on how a contemporary working professional sees things.
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This is very midsummer madness. -Shakespeare Twelfth Night
David
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As I said earlier, I feel that being aware of the harmonic material available within scales or any combinations of notes has been useful to me. George Russell's book was a bit confusing to me, negotiating his realigning the lydian as the primary scale.
One strong idea that I took away from the book was that studying a combination of scales opens the doors to all the intervals of the chromatic scale but digested in more manageable bites. While I learned over time all the associative short cut formulas, the material only came to life after learning to hear the intervals.
Outside of the stories that I read on my computer screen, I have yet to encounter any of the CST criminals in my analog day to day. I do meet people temporarily confused by some aspect of music making. By my estimate their intentions fall more on the side of good than evil regardless of how well they are able to execute musically.
Thanks targuit for your response for my rather big question.
Bach was very aware of primary scale content and had great control over every appearance of notes outside of the basic seven.
At times his music sounds more modern to me than some of what was happening in the time of Haydn, Mozart.
All music is formed through select combinations of notes and sounds organized by their appearance along a time spectrum
and driven by a story we choose to tell. There are many methodology paths seeking to raise the level of artistry.
I believe that conflict is not an inevitable condition and peace is possible.
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I'm done here too. Originally Posted by targuit
Well, Spirit, when it comes to playing music, my ego is doing just fine, thanks. But I don't much appreciate being taken to the woodshed for expressing an opinion that happens to coincide with Jim Raney or Joe Pass. By no means do I put myself in their elite sphere of achievement. But, if I opine that I think that Allen Holdsworth's music has less thematic coherence than Bach, it's an opinion.
And if you or anyone else need CST to produce a decent melody or simply want to organize your musical thought that way - FINE. It is the height of arrogance for someone to suggest that if CST is not your thing, then you either
- don't understand it, or
- you are some reactionary troglodyte.
If you don't like my opinion, then you must surely think Jim Raney is a clod as well. Did you listen to his comments? He suggested that Stan Getz played almost entirely by ear with his natural talent. If he didn't worship at the altar of CST, does that invalidate his immense musical ability? I hope the answer to that question should be clear and obvious. There are only twelve tones in Western music. If you need a roadmap to figure what note to play in your solo or what the twelve options are, knock yourself out. Frankly, I don't.
Now I've wasted enough time on this discussion. Time to go back to my next project - transforming some Bach pieces into swing! Sure to be a best seller on the adult contemporary charts. Poor Johann - just wasn't enlightened, was he? Peace. Over and ....OUT.
It's like you don't even read my posts - I've said numerous times that I don't have a problem with you not needing CST. Plenty of great music can be / has been made without it. Yet the majority of your posts' content is your defensive posturing made against arguments that *NOBODY is MAKING* - arguments that, since nobody is making them, you MANUFACTURE YOURSELF, evidently because you feel the need to argue.
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Targuit seems to just like watching himself be poetic and then congratulating himself on his well written posts. The reading comprehension bit, that needs some work.
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Anybody who actually plays jazz knows there's situations where thinking about chord scales makes more sense, and situations where thinking about arpeggios and chromatics makes more sense.
They also know that both are just methods of organizing the fretboard, and that the real thinking needs to be done in practice, not on the bandstand.
The arguement is such a non issue, it's almost laughable.
Sorry to come off as a know it all dick, but a lot of folks just starting out with jazz read this forum, and threads like this can be enough for those folks to hang it up.
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