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AssEat, I'll spell your name correctly when you do so with mine. You started misspelling game, don't play naive whore role. And please restrain of vulgarities. You're the only one using them.
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06-13-2013 08:56 PM
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You are vulger with your non swear word attacts.
Originally Posted by Vladan
But you are correct I should not use that language and I won't anymore. After this one cmment.
ASSeat was pretty good, much more creative than mine.ok, no more swearing.
Is douchbag a curse word? - from the si fi movie Signs
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Can we keep insults aside? I see many posts of "let's discuss the music" but most of these are calling others asseaters and douchebags.
Back to the guy, I agree with everyone's point. He's a pretty damn good player, but most of what he's doing isn't rocket science. I do some of that myself. It's a lot of intervallic movement and sidestepping. You hear that a lot in most jazz musicians playing, and I wouldn't call it "twelve tone approach" or atonal. It's just going in and out of the chords, something that is very much appreciated in a jam tune with not so many changes.
I mean, I listen to a lot of weird music, with very mechanical approaches to writing. Two examples, Miles Okazaki, a young guy, he approaches his music like math, and constructs a matrix and a visual chart from his lead sheets. Check out his website, guy has some really crazy approaches. Also, Tim Hagans, trumpet player, has some really crazy things going on. I had a chance to sit in with him once and play with him, and I'll tell you, it was not easy. He has some really weird lines that are all over the place. Regardless, I wouldn't dare call their music tonal or atonal, it's jazz. It goes outside the changes, and comes back in. I save that kind of talk for Schoenberg. Same goes for microtonality. I don't think you can refer to string bending as microtonal, even as it technically is, it's not used in the purpose of microtonality. I mean, in that case, any singer that was flat or sharp would be a microtonal genius, and I'm not even gonna mention those blues guitarists who bend the life out of their strings. The clip with the fretless guitar is a bit more microtonal, if you want to go that way, but he's still staying withing the confines. When I think microtonal, I think of Indian music, or guys like Harry Partch (who created his own 42 note scale, as well as dozens of instruments to go with his own theory, THAT was microtonality).
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Well,, how to respond?? Rich, you're correct, I am a fanboy, I'm that way with many players. I'm a big fan of Matino but I can'tplay like him. I'm a big fan of Robben Ford but I can't play like him. I'm a huge Frisell fan but I can't play like him.I'm a big nut for unique concepts and think of myself as a lifelong student. I have no shame in any this. Can only let you have your opinions. How good I am is very subjective as is Kimocks abilities. I have no fight in me. To be honest, this thead has been a theraputic distraction to a real scary situation in my life right now, the reality that my 23 yr old son has been going through a slew of tests fr cancer, fortunately they haven't found anything beyond a cacinoid found with the first test. So this thread has been a absorbing diversion. And the prognosis appears to be great, although he still may need surgery for an intestine problem. So my fanboy self is ok with me.
The reality is you know nothing about me and the "level" I'm at with jazz and guitar. But you seem to understand me because of your personal history with "fanboys". By that I assume you have zero top shelf players that you dig enough to talk about. I also I take it you are a top shelf player in your own right. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm ok with my position in the musical world, I gig oc occasionally and I have fun. I do need to stop stop hanging on to my opinions and allowing everyone to own their own opinions. I see that as the big problem with me on this thread.
It just amazes me how ugly people can get, incliding myself. I started the thrdad with the best of intensions and it became just flat out mean.
I could simply quit but then I lose big time and I'M NOT willing to do that. And perhaps using the thread for my own personal therapy without anyone knowing what I was doing just may have also been a big mistake Rich, You really did not get it but I wont push it any more because you are entitled to your own opinion.
Originally Posted by Richb
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In case anyone missed it, ^this^. This comment right here, folks. Let it sink in for a bit. Originally Posted by Reg
There is a deep well of profundity here.
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This post got me to look at myself and how I was cming across to everyone. I agree and will strive to not lecture anymore. Originally Posted by jckoto3
I appreciate the directness to the problem I have been operating with.
I want to change this behavior I was for the most part unaware of.
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I've been pondering whether to post this ne last pst to this thread. And I decided to post it, not as an excuse but rather as an explanation to my behavior.
The last two weeks of my life have been the worst days oof my life. I had and have absolutely no control over my sons health. I felt totally powerless, a feeling I hope none of you ever have to experience. I now see very clearly that this thread and my lecturing behavior was am attemp to have something I could control, and with no regard to you all I put the plan into action, unknwn to me this control thing would never happen and it morphed into a thing that I could release my. My frustrations through arguing. It didn't work. As well it shouldn't have. Tonite I see what I have been doing. And I apologise. I still have this feeling of powerlessness but I'm putting it in proper perspective.
I suggest this thread die. Yes Kimock is a damn fine player but he does not deserve to be a pawn in my power quest. In the end, this would never give me the control I want to tackle the medical issues that I will always not be able to control. In other woords, it's a reflection of my fear of my sons situation.
This thread is a symtom of that powerlessness. And it sucks. I have the desire to share, not dictate.
I hope you understand. And please forgive my abberation from my normal behavior of sharing and receiving.
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Hey ASAT,
Sorry you got a lot of hard stuff you need to go through right now. Last year was the absolute worst year of my life -- serious life-ending stuff for one of the most important people ever in my life. I can definitely sympathize with the feeling of helplessness and despair when you're unable to help someone you care about.
We all have tough shit to cope with from time to time and we each need to cope in our own way, but sometimes it takes a while to find the proper outlet. I hope this thread has helped you find yours.
Best wishes.
Incidentally, doubling down on the guitar has helped me more than I can explain, not the theory and application of stuff, but simply leaning in and playing from the soul.
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Originally Posted by ASATcat
We understand. Now pick up the guitar and really let it out.
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My son is without a doubt the most important thing in my life...I can completely understand how having a sick child would affect my interactions with everyone around me. My best to you and yours.
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All the best to your familly. I'm not in that position, but last year I was under great pressure, at about that time I started to record and upload these POV driving videos, so maybe you could start new hobby, too, to kill the rest of the time, when you're not with your son.
Last edited by Vladan; 06-14-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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So sorry to hear about your son's health problems. I hope the outlook improves!
Best wishes.
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Speaking of microtonal stuff, at least using microtones with vibrato like Indian Karnatic music does, I didn't think it was possible to do it authentically on a fretted instrument until I heard U Srinivas, he's so good. Originally Posted by ASATcat
I have heard actual atonal music where the micro-notes are not just put in quick vibrato but have actual extra frets for them. It's bizarre.
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There are no micro-tones here. He plays the gamaks beautifuly with those slides, but all the actual pitches are fixed. The meend (bend, basically) doesn't play as big a role in Carnatic music, as it does in Northern Classical music, which is why the mandolin works well. Originally Posted by joelr
There are two completely different approaches to micro-tonality. In Indian music, they are a by-product of the pure intonation - there are often a few different pitches, that produce a perfect interval, and those are used consciously to produce a desired effect. In Western music, micro-tonality is a product of extending the though process behind the equal temperament - 'if we can divide an octave into 12 equal parts, what will happen if we divide it into 18?' etc.
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Originally Posted by Sphere
I see. I've been listening to L. Shankar, Nusrat Fateh ALi Khan and others for years. I never knew the vibrato had a name and rules. My favorite is Shankar's Pancha Nadai Pallavi. The first piece is insane.
I'm going to try to cop some of U. Srinivas lines from the video.
I'm listening to a micro-tonal piano piece right now.
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There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread about what "microtonal" music is. Playing microtonally means playing music that is not based on the equally tempered, 12-tone Western scale.
e.g.
This is very different than vibrato, which is just a performance technique that is still based around the 12-tone scale system. Listen to the piece above, and you'll very quickly hear the difference.
Personally, I think the 12-tone system was invented for a very good reason, and a lot of this stuff sounds really awful to me. I also notice that few of the microtonal composers ever plays tunes that shift key centers, which was the whole reason the 12-tone scale was established in the first place.
Reinventing the wheel is usually not very productive.
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It's a great album! Btw, have you heard R. Prasanna? He does similiar things to Srinivas, but on guitar. Originally Posted by joelr
EVERY little thing in Indian music has a name. Those are very strict systems, despite the performance being based in large part on improvisation.
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Please refer to my post above regarding different approaches to micro-tonality. Originally Posted by ecj
As far as how it's used in the west, in modern music, it's a matter of taste.
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Check out David Fiuczynski's solo starting about 4:56 minutes in with Rudresh Mahanthappa's band.
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My issue is that the term was being used in this thread to denote approaches that are more "complex" or "sophisticated" because they are using microtonal theories. See the first few pages. Originally Posted by Sphere
The reality is that every jazz musician on the planet uses a great deal of microtonal stuff in their solos when they slide into a note or hold it with vibrato. Blues is a form of music that uses a great deal of "microtonality" in this way, but we don't generally consider it a more complex approach. In fact, a lot of classical purists back in the day were very down on blues and jazz for being dissonant and vulgar for this fact.
I'm saying that a lot of the African, Middle Eastern, Indian, and East Asian musics that have "microtonal" elements have them because they never developed the 12-tone, equally-tempered scale; not because they are purposefully eschewing it. Most folk musics, including Western European folks musics, were heavily "microtonal" before the invention of equal temperament. That doesn't make it bad, but I'm getting the impression that people think somehow not being equally tempered is some super-special, sophisticated new approach. Maybe I'm wrong.
When people talk about "microtonal compositions" or "microtonal music" in the world of composition and theory, they're usually referring to attempts to incorporate more tones into the basic 12-tone system via some theoretic framework, not guys sliding around on fretless guitars or doing a lot of bending.
Almost all music, at one point or another, was based on string overtone series, which are not equally tempered. Everything started falling apart when people began to compose pieces that shifted tonal centers, because the fifth of a particular chord was not necessarily harmonious with its own fifth or other notes. For example, if you were playing in C and you played a G, then wanted to modulate to the five at some point and shift tonal centers to G, the B and D that you had established on your string instrument to play in the key of C might not work over the G tonal center (usually, especially the "B"). You would get really bad beating and it would sound terribly out of tune, because it was. The equally tempered 12-tone scale made sure that the distance between all of the notes was the same, so that no matter how you shifted around all the relationships remained consistent. It's not perfect, but it allows for more complex composition.
That's why the piece I posted sounds so bad to our ears. We've had about 500 years to get used to the sound of an even-tempered scale. A lot of the "exotic" stuff that you hear people get excited about in world music circles would sound a lot less exotic if it was just played with an equally tempered instrument (like Fucz demonstrates in that clip).
I just wanted to add that perspective to this thread, because a lot of the time when guitarists talk they use their own lingo that other musicians don't really understand. It's kind of like hearing guitarists ask what "mode" they should play over a song.
Interesting stuff.
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Interesting and welcome thread.
1 - Reason all my guitars have whammy bars is so that I can reach 1/4 notes below the fretted note. I always block them so they only go downpitch because I can bend for the 1/4 notes up. I actually practice hitting those 'in-between' notes. Hopefully when I start composing one day I'll include them as well.
2 - Microtonality exists everywhere, us calling it microtonality is a bit Western-imperialist. Who's to say how frequencies should be divided or organized? I find great beauty in Charles Ives's 1/4 tone piano works but it takes some getting used to. I wish one day I could 'hear' those melodies when I'm playing, though, so I could improvise using them.
3 - 12-tone serialism is another matter entirely. For sh*ts and giggles, here's some 12-tone serialism (sort of) applied to a genre that welcomes atonality with open arms (it's all about rhythm really):
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Hey Carlos... cool stuff
But we are on a Jazz site with fairly solid references... when there are no references... anything is in the context.
There are still organizational guidelines when using 1/4 tones and 12 tone applications, rhythmic organization is one, but usually more of an effect, embellishment and development of harmonic and melodic concepts.
Generally within jazz there are means of creating function... harmonic movement within a tonal system.
Most of the use of 1/4 tones appear more as an embellishment to existing tonal systems. As opposed to defined pitches being designed as functional components to creating that function.
I believe Ives just tuned two pianos a 1/4 tone apart... his music was usually tonal, just mixtures of different tonal aspects.
Composers like Bartok still used 1/4 tones as an effect, not tonally. The Polish composers used 1/4 tone composition...Penderecki, Wyschnegradsky ?
Who really cares... but there is jazz common practice.
Nice youtube material, different but cool.
Reg
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Thanks, Reg.
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It's about reharmonization. Harmonize your song so that the passing chords, secondary dominants, and substitute chords reinforce the tonality of the original key. If you subscribe to the notion (as I do) that an improvised line is a "linear representation" of harmony, then what you are doing is incorporating pieces of those harmonies into your solo. As a simple example, instead of Originally Posted by JakeAcci
IIm V I
do
IIm bIIm I
Now you have a chromatic passing chord which helps establish the tonality of Imaj
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I checked him out, thanks, good stuff. Originally Posted by Sphere
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