Upper structure triads, slash chords.

[bluesky]

Hi there, for sometime I've been studying the upper structure triads or slash chords, even the one on this site, but I seen not to understand them. I keep reading about choosing a triad and giving it a base note, is there a rule for choosing a base note for the triad, mr I just choose any base with any triad I wish. And how do I use the chord by the way. Thanks in advance.

[JakeAcci]

Analyze the combination of notes and see how they relate to common harmonies - m7, maj7, m7b5 etc, as well as to tensions/extensions - 9, 11, 13 with whatever flats or sharps.

For example F#/C can be representing C7b5b9; it has the b9, b5, and b7.

Or an upper structure Ebm triad over C7 is the tones #9, b5, b7, again useful as an altered dominant.

Though maybe not a popular/fun activity for most, I've analyzed every possible maj and min triad over C to see what harmonies result. Pretty basic and mechanical process, but important and educational.

[pkirk]

To repeat what JakeAcci said slightly differently, any triad over any bass note (or over another triad) can be used (somewhere), you have to figure out what the resulting chord is.

To some extent thinking this way is more a piano thing than a "chord" thing, since pianists will play the upper structure triad with their right hand, and the triad for the "chord of the moment" with their left, and so thinking this way gives them a handy way to visualize complicated chords more simply in terms of two triads. In my experience guitarists use mostly slash chords, i.e. a triad with the root as a bass note rather than upper structures.

As JakeAcci says, one way to use them is to analyze how the notes of the triad relate to the bass note, viewed as a root, as in the F#/C=C7b5b9 example. Or F/G= G9sus.

but they are also useful in implying specific sounds than might not be well represented by conventional chord symbols. Eg when the root is a mi3 above the triad, so E/G is a cool guitar chord that you could analyze as G6b9, but that is an unusual chord name that might be hard to find quickly (whereas an Emaj triad is easy to locate) and the spelling G6b9 obscures the sounght after sound (not to mention that its easier to blow over an E/G thinking of it as an Emaj than as a G6b9)

Another use (of slash chords, not upper structures) is when the composer wants to specify a particular non-diatonic or contrary motion bass line in a progression, eg. Cmi Dmi/B Emaj/Bb F7/A etc. So in guitar chord melody, or in a combo with a bass player, you are getting more precise info about what to play.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

BlueSky,

Could you be clearer? Perhaps an example. There is a big difference between D/F# (first inversion) and F#/C. It's unclear what you are trying to express.

[Rhoderick]

Hello.
You could try at

http://www.thecrains.net/stick/polychords-sample.pdf

I hope it helps.

Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memory.

Llewelyn Wyn Griffith

[bluesky]

Hi guys, thanks for your help and contributions. I'll work on what you've all suggested. I'm sure they'll work.

[jaco]

Another idea is to get the Pat Metheny Songbook. He uses these quite a bit, and seeing them in the context of a song , ( which you should listen too while going through the tune) should give you a feeling for where they work best.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Another idea is to get the Pat Metheny Songbook. He uses these quite a bit, and seeing them in the context of a song , ( which you should listen too while going through the tune) should give you a feeling for where they work best.

I tried to draw a response from folks when I said we should name F/G (G9sus4) "the Metheny chord" the way rockers call a 7#9 "the Hendrix chord". No response! I still think we should do it, since no one else has named it.

[jaco]

As far as well known guitarist go, Metheny uses it quite a bit. Probably earned more money per chord for it than anyone else.

[JakeAcci]

I always hear that one called the "disco" chord.

[ASATcat]

Here is a Don Mock slant on major triads over bass notes.

A/A - A major or A dominant
F/A - F major or F dominant
D/A - D major or A13 suspended
Bb/A - Bb maj7 or Gm9
B/A - B7 or Amaj6/9b5
E/A - modern spacier Amaj9
G/A - A11 A7sus A9sus Em7 Em7sus Em11 Metheny chord
C/A - Am7
C#/A - C#7 C#7b5 F# melodic minor and F# harmonic minor
Eb/A - A7(b5b9) Ebmaj7b5
F#/A - A13b9
G#/A - G#7b9 B13b9 A°1/2 whole, C# Harm M, A Mel M, E major

I could offer more Don Mock info if needed
enjoy

[JakeAcci]

Here is a Don Mock slant on major triads over bass notes.

A/A - A major or A dominant
F/A - F major or F dominant
D/A - D major or A13 suspended
Bb/A - Bb maj7 or Gm9
B/A - B7 or Amaj6/9b5
E/A - modern spacier Amaj9
G/A - A11 A7sus A9sus Em7 Em7sus Em11 Metheny chord
C/A - Am7
C#/A - C#7 C#7b5 F# melodic minor and F# harmonic minor
Eb/A - A7(b5b9) Ebmaj7b5
F#/A - A13b9
G#/A - G#7b9 B13b9 A°1/2 whole, C# Harm M, A Mel M, E major

I could offer more Don Mock info if needed
enjoy

I have some quibbles with the above, even if it's straight from Don's mouth.

My take is, we can look at slash chords for a few things:

1. What is the sound in isolation, without context? Assume the bass note is in a lower register.

2. What mode or pitch collection is most obviously implied?

3. What pitch collections contain the structure, but are less obvious?

4. What are the possible uses for the structure in composition or substitution?

The quoted list mixes those, has some important omissions, and has some misleading info. I'd be concerned that somebody not familiar with slash chords would be further confused by it. No offense intended, ASATcat, I am just trying to be helpful to the OP and anybody else not that familiar with slash chords.

Possible uses can be limitless, anything can be used as anything. I think it's helpful to look at what the most obvious implications are first. Below is just the way I see it/hear it, talking about most obvious relation to common seventh chords, or to the more obvious mode:

C/C = root pos triad

Db/C = C7sus4b9, C phrygian

D/C = inverted D7, C lydian

Eb/C = Cm7

E/C = Cma7#5

F/C = second inversion F triad

F#/C = useful and common as C7b5b9. There is no third. Exists within C altered scale or C half/whole scale

G/C = Cma9 without a third.

Ab/C = first inversion Ab major triad

A/C = C13b9 though there is no b7 (or 5.) Exists within C half/whole scale and F harmonic major.

Bb/C = C9sus4 (no fifth)

B/C = C diminished major seventh

If you put any of these structures over a different bass note or implied root note, you get even more options and we get some of those in Don's list....examples Cma7#5 (E/C) with an implied A note root is then Aminma9. With an implied D note root it is D13#11 (no 5, no 3.) I see that as another degree of separation (or a degree of addition, really...)

Being practical, if you voice a 'slash chord' in a higher register (so the bass note is not as prominent) then it can take on many more roles. Even more true if you treat it as a four note pitch collection that can be inverted. (triad "plus" bass note rather than triad "over" bass note.)

I think some good activities for those trying to get familiar with slash chord and polychord harmonies are:

1. Analyze all 12 minor triads over C bass note to try to come up with something similar to my above list. Then augmented and diminished...

2. For each line of my list, analyze that structure over all 12 possible roots to find anything useful. (So it's a slash chord on top of another root note.) For example, Bb/C I found:

(Bb/C)/Eb = Ebma13 no 3 (6, 5, 7, 9)

(Bb/C)/Gb = Gbma7#5#11

(Bb/C)/G = Gm11

(Bb/C)/Ab = Ab lydian ( 3, 9, #11, 13)

(Bb/C)/Bb = Bbadd9

The activity there is basically "here are four notes, what relation to those four notes have to each possible root note."

3. Analyze every discovered slash chord can fit into the most common chord scales/pitch collections: major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, diminished.

I'm really saying the same stuff as Don's list above but I think organizing this way is useful and brings out the different possible functions.

[ASATcat]

Thanks Jake, perhaps in my simplifiying I left out important info. One thing I left out was his line examples, so, since the book "The Power Of Ten" has been D/C'd for over twenty years it's probably ok to write the lines out. The only way I have to do that is with crappy computer tab. But what the heck. It's a lot of work with my phone and I will need a few posts t do it.
All examples are streams of 8th notes

A/A
-9-7--------7-------10-l-7-------7-------------l
-------10-7---7-10----l----10-7---10-7------l
--------------------------l-------------------9-6-l
--------------------------l------------------------l
--------------------------l------------------------l
--------------------------l------------------------l

----------------------l----------------------l
-7-------7-----------l----------------------l
-------6---9-6------l-6-------6-----------l
----9-----------9-7-l-------7----9-7------l
----------------------l----9------------9-7-l
----------------------l-----------------------l

------------------------l--
------------------------l--
------------------------l--
-7--------7------------l--
--------7----9-7-------l--
-----9-------------9-7-l-5

Well that took 1/2 hour lol
Next,,,,,,,



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[pkirk]

Just to be clear to anyone interested but confused by this thread (quite possibly including me): there are two slightly different topics:

"slash chords" which is usually short for chord X with bass note Y and written X/Y, eg A/Bb or E7b9/Eb

and

"upper structures" or "polychords" which means chord X and chord Y played simultaneously. Typically X and Y are triads, and typically X has all its voices lower than all the voices of Y, so that Y is the "upper structure". I dont think there is an accepted notation for this (I think in "chord chemistry" ted greene uses X/Y)

A few of these go a long way, so that just knowing well, (i.e. hearing them rather than computing them) four or five uses of the kind JakeAcci lists can really extend your comping/chord melody bag of tricks.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Using the computer keyboard I write slash chords F/G and polychords B|C. By hand, I write slash chords the same way and polychords vertically ("B" over "<horizontal line>" over "C").

[JakeAcci]

I like slash chord notation as

C/G

and polychord notation as

C
G

[ASATcat]

F/A
-------13--------------------l-------------------------------------l
-7-10----10-9--------------l-------------------------------------l
------------------12-10-----l-12-----10------10---------------l
--------------------------12-l-----12------12------12-10------l
------------------------------l---------------------------------11-l
------------------------------l-------------------------------------l

-----------------------------------l--------------------------------l
-----------------------------------l--------------------10---------l
-----------------------------------l-10------12-------------------l
----------------------10-12-10-l------10------10--------------l
-10-----10-11-12--------------l--------------------------------l
-----13---------------------------l--------------------------------l

D/A
--------------------------l---------------------------l
--------------------------l-------------7------10---l
-----------------------7-l----9-----7-----9------7-l
-------7-----9-----7----l-9-----7------------------l
----7-----9-----9-------l---------------------------l
-7-----------------------l---------------------------l

----7-----10----9-12-10-l-----14---------------------------l
-7----10-----7------------l-12------12------------------12-l
-----------------------------l---------------------------11-----l
-----------------------------l--------------14------12---------l
-----------------------------l-------------------12-------------l
-----------------------------l-----------------------------------l

-------------------------------l
-------------------------------l
-9----------------------------l
-------------------9------12-l
-----12------11-----12-----l
----------12-----------------l

Ok my wrist hurts, time for a small break

...
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[ASATcat]

Well, good points, I'm going to finish triads over bass notes for the clarity of the two subjects. Then polychords maybe.

[ASATcat]

Just in case this all becoming too clear and easy lol

Mick Goodrick in his top shelf book The Advancing Guitarist writes his triads over bass notes like this,

D
~
A

That confused me max until I reread the preceeding paragraph saying they were triads over bass notes. For a long time I thought he was talking about triads over triads. So confusing in one of the highest acclaimed books =/

Bad Goodrick, bad

[bako]

An "in between slash and poly mentality" is something like this.


D
C ---------- D/C and D/E and D/G


F#
C------------F#/C and F#/E and F#/G


3 inter-related options and no need to speculate about a corresponding scale.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"in between slash and poly mentality"
I like the sound of that, I will have to try and inject it into a sentence this week at some random moment.

[jaco]

Ralph Towner is another great artist I'd suggest for listening to. This formation or any other needs to be listened to in context of an actual tune.

[ASATcat]

Ralph Towner is another great artist I'd suggest for listening to. This formation or any other needs to be listened to in context of an actual tune.

I have Ralphs book on improisation and performance technique as well as solo woorks boook 1 and 2, and I have not done the analysis on any of it. Truthfully the tunes scare me they are so intense. I've played through Toledo and that tune is on the edge of what I could do in small sections. I hear the polychords but have not done the analysis to understand whatever I would understand. I think I need Towner therapy.
Thanks for the reality check.
Don't get me wrong, some tunes like Always By Your Side and Anthem are a cakewalk but Toledo, jeez

[jaco]

ASATcat, I recently had a lesson with Larry Coryell. He sent me an e-mail after the lesson that said " Don't analyse, utilize".

[ASATcat]

A Toledo chord

Gm
-----
A

-
-3
-3
-5
-0
-

Ok, it's written like a triad over a triad but looks like a triad over a bass note.
Confused, looks like a Goodrick chord that also confused me

My brain hurts lol

[bluesky]

Hi guys, thanks for your contributions, pkirk, asatcat, bigdaddy, jake acci, rhoderick, and others, your contributions really help. Thanks a bunch.