The altered scale a min 3rd up!

[Guitarzen]

Yes, I agree, a well organized system is needed.

I'm interested in using your system, so if playing from the 6th fret, how do you explain these note choices for a E7b9?
See fretboard diagram shown below:

Well, the original poster pretty much explained that already, and I gave my opinion on it. Over the E7b9 in a minor key I'd likely use the A harmonic minor, or the E half-whole scale. There are other possibilities of course. In a major key I'd probably choose the E alt scale. This all assumes the E7b9 is functioning as the V in some way. For a tritone sub I would use the lydian dominant (4th mode of the melodic minor), which simply works out to be the alt scale of the true V chord anyways. What you have diagramed is the Ab melodic minor (aka G alt scale), a minor third up from the typical melodic minor we would use for E7b9 (F melodic minor). The B should be labled Cb, to be absolutely accurate. The OP already explained the notes above:

when we look at the pitch collection we have :
#9 M3rd b5 P5th M6th M7th b9 so 3 notes differ from the E altered scale.

I hope that helps with clarification. I understand that there are many different possibilities for altered dominants, I'm just saying keeping it simple usually gives me the best results. The fewer scales I have to worry about the better. And as I said, with the skillful use of chromatic tones, you in effect have all scales available to you, even if you are only thinking of one.

[princeplanet]

Totally her ya But, the way I chanced upon it was drilling ideas for Autumn Leaves in C. Basically 2 5 1 in maj going to 2 5 1 in it's relative minor. By using the same ideas for both 2 5 1 's I'm not making things more complicated, but easier!

Some may even say that is simplifying things too much! What can I say, I have a tendency toward laziness....

[GuyBoden]

The fewer scales I have to worry about the better. And as I said, with the skillful use of chromatic tones, you in effect have all scales available to you, even if you are only thinking of one.

Thanks, I'm always interested to know the systems other players use.

Basically 2 5 1 in maj going to 2 5 1 in it's relative minor. By using the same ideas for both 2 5 1 's I'm not making things more complicated, but easier!

Thanks, yeah, using a "2-5-1" Major line over a relative minor "2-5-1", I've heard this mentioned as a shortcut, doesn't really work for my ears.

Compare a "C Major 2-5-1" G7 to "A minor 2-5-1" E7alt.

G7 = G A B C D E F
E7alt = E F G Ab Bb C D E

[princeplanet]

But play G Alt for both V's.... Maybe why it works for my ear is that playing a given line first in the C maj 2 5alt 1, then the same line over the A min 2 5alt 1, the repetition helps the line sound like it's working over the min 2 5 1. I guess when playing the min 2 5alt 1 in isolation it's more challenging to hear it working. Still, it gets down to the quality of the line, and the conviction n the playing. IMHO.

[GuyBoden]

Maybe why it works for my ear is that playing a given line first in the C maj 2 5alt 1, then the same line over the A min 2 5alt 1, the repetition helps the line sound like it's working over the min 2 5 1. I guess when playing the min 2 5alt 1 in isolation it's more challenging to hear it working. Still, it gets down to the quality of the line, and the conviction n the playing. IMHO.

Yes, I agree, using a strong melodic line can sound very good.

If it sounds good, it must be good.
Guy

[Vladan]

I'm all for melodic lines and inertia of previous chords, I've no problem with that and use it all the time.
Ther's one thing I've noticed, however. While listening to music, if I hear one too many "must be good if sounds good when played wih conviction" lines in a row, I start yawning, feel tired, and only a developing headache stops me from actually falling asleep.

[GuyBoden]

I'm all for melodic lines and inertia of previous chords, I've no problem with that and use it all the time.
There's one thing I've noticed, however. While listening to music, if I hear one too many "must be good if sounds good when played with conviction" lines in a row, I start yawning, feel tired, and only a developing headache stops me from actually falling asleep.

Yeah, I like to hear players who can play the changes and also create great melodies while they're doing it.
Guy


P.S Vladan
How are you progressing learning to play the changes.

[Vladan]

In 3 words, and to be honest: I'm not.

[princeplanet]

I'm all for melodic lines and inertia of previous chords, I've no problem with that and use it all the time.
Ther's one thing I've noticed, however. While listening to music, if I hear one too many "must be good if sounds good when played wih conviction" lines in a row, I start yawning, feel tired, and only a developing headache stops me from actually falling asleep.

I'd be interested to know examples of this kind of playing if you can think of some. I fear I might be developing some of these habits and would hate to sound too boring or contrived to others...

[Vladan]

I can't, I was thinking live performances. For recordings player usually get together with himself, take care and prepare licks to be played.

Further, I rarelly listen to Jazz. When I do, first I go for Louis Prima and Ella, then for groovie hits like Cantaloope, and only then to Miles, Coltrane and Parker, sometimes Corea, Weather Report and Zawinul, not exactly a headache making bunch.

[princeplanet]

Ha ha, thanks for clarifying that you don't listen to much Jazz. Gives me a context for your comments.

[Vladan]

All music is the same in headache domain. YMMV.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When you go out, slam the door!

[joelr]

I'd be interested to know examples of this kind of playing if you can think of some. I fear I might be developing some of these habits and would hate to sound too boring or contrived to others...

My .03$ is it's an example of " a sound over a sound" type playing that I hear a lot of lately. Not so much chromatic but actual changes in a distantly related key. Sometimes 1/2 step up or down or even interesting patterns. Then it resolves to release the tension.
Tim Miller is the guy who comes to mind.

This one is another rythm changes. I analyzed the solo and wrote his superimposed changes in the comments.

I want to check out his lessons but my damn Paypal account is locked until I sent them some b.s. paperwork.

My comments - someone asked for the superimposed changes so I did a few:

The 3rd time through A is really cool, the lines over the changes go: Bb, E / Db, E7 / A / A, B, Em / E7, Am/ Am, B / Bb7 / F#m, Bb, starts at bar 97 on the transcription. At 57, the second chorus, first A goes: Bb, E / Dbm / F7 / F7 (whole tone scale) / Bm7 / Bm7/ Bb / Bb.
He plays notes from those arpeggios sometimes adding other tensions and sometimes using chromatic neighbor notes to outline the arpeggio notes.

http://www.aguitaristsnotebook.com/archiv/transcription-index (transcription)

[princeplanet]

Yeah, cheers. Tim Miller is someone I definitely don't want to sound like. Infact, most modern guys stay outside for too long for my tastes. It's like they get stuck in "egg head" mode for an entire solo. Maybe it's because I listen to Hard Bop and early Post Bop, but I'm used to hearing a lot more going on that interests and excites me. Even someone as straight ahead as , say, Dexter Gordon. In any one of his solos it seems you'll find the following:

swing - in his own way of course
melody and variations- that you can hum, -that sticks in your head
quotes- like in any conversation, adds spice
humor - the guy cracks me up
danger - takes chances, ends phrases in very unexpected ways. walks the tightrope and you want him to make it.
personality - just drips with it, tone, choice of notes, expression, everything
sex- yeah sex! it's sexy, sassy, seductive, has swagger etc
blues - masterful at slipping in and out of bluesy lines
vocabulary- call me old fashioned, but I like to hear it, the challenge is to keep it fresh, put your own spin on it. Dex does.
wildness/excitement - can wail and shred, BUT picks the right moment
egg head / intellectual element- enjoys leaning lines over the edge into "outside" zones, but does it sparingly FOR EFFECT.

I could go on, but that'll do to at least show what I appreciate about THAT kinda playing. Tim Miller has an over abundance of the last category, egg-head - he's got that down. But without any other listed elements he'll never appeal to me.

I'm sure he's fine with that!

[wizard3739]

That "trick" is probably the first improv concept I learned many years ago. Play a minor 7th lick, same lick up a minor third and then down a half step for resolution. I like it because it doesn't require any conscious thought.

wiz

[3625]

A player like Tim Miller was bound to emerge at some point I guess - heavy Holdsworth influence, but coming also from a 'traditional' jazz background in terms of theory and repertoire. PP - I can relate in my own way to what you said, I find Tim Miller's playing uber intellectual, but it doesn't grab me - there's something I want that isn't there. Probably a certain way of feeling time linked to phrasing maybe. I prefer someone with their feet on the ground, not their head in the clouds so to speak. And I find myself feeling this way about some of the other modern guys as well.

Perhaps contradicting what I just said, I'm a total Holdsworth nut and I love that flowing, organic time feel he gets with his bands like on City Nights, Tullio or whatever else you could choose from his discog.

Holdsworth seems to grab my attention with his playing and compositions whereas I find listening to Miller, Moreno, etc. my mind wanders - the complexity is there in spades, but emotionally it's on lithium. Maybe I'm starting to get old lol.... (not hearing it!!!)

p.s. From what I've read, nothing but good reports about Tim Miller's teaching website, supposed to be a great teacher

[princeplanet]

That "trick" is probably the first improv concept I learned many years ago. Play a minor 7th lick, same lick up a minor third and then down a half step for resolution. I like it because it doesn't require any conscious thought.

wiz

Hey Wiz, can you explain more about how you might use this concept? Examples even? Cheers.