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Herb doesn't call it that but he uses that shape. It falls between two other shapes. The root of it would be the low root of the "D" shape and the top part of it would be the bar of the "long A" shape.
Originally Posted by Trumpton
If you look at Herb's shape 4, a dominant 7 chord including the 9th (usually called a 9th chord), you can see the "short A" shape.
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03-05-2015 10:38 AM
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It's an achievement to get the whole solo together and let 'er rip like that. Nice chord stabs too!
Here's the funny thing: I hear these pieces much slower. One of the things I like about them, on the page, is the pauses and then the rhythmic Bam! when it comes back.
At the high tempo, as on the CD, I have trouble savoring the individual phrases.
Anyway ... hopefully I'll get a few choruses up in a little while, with some ideas I've been working on. Thanks for contributing so much to this thread, Mark.
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Some thoughts on Solo 1, in 2 parts
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and ...
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How is everyone doing ??...I’ve almost got this one down but it’s not totally perfect. Surprised it took longer than I thought to get those lines down. I think of it as 5 rounds, and oddly, it’s the last one, which is not the most ‘difficult’ that I keep slipping up on without the music in front of me.
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It's funny what can cause problems. When something snags me, it really snags me and it sometimes takes awhile to figure out what the problem is. (Picking? Fingering? Mistake in rhythm?) Sometimes it turns out to be a mistake in the transcription! Originally Posted by odel
I'm working on "Bay Blues," the slow blues at the end. I can play it all without reference to the sheet music. (On a good day.) I don't have every nuance down, though. But man, I'm so much better at it than I used to be! ;o)
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Hello All.
I got diverted to this thread by a thread I started on Jazz Blues. It looks like I missed out on some fun. I was going down a different path and did not check it out.
I have this book (Swing Blues). I bought it a few years ago. I had other books/CD sets that lured me away. I have to admit, that when read the explanation for the chord progression on page 17 (under the heading "Substitutions), I was turned off by the way the explanation would mention a different chord than the measure it was referring to (such as the text referring to the F#7 in the third measure, when there was actually an F#9).
I have matured a little more and am more tolerant of mistakes in Jazz instructional books, after all, there is still a lot of information given and licks one can use.
Sooooo, I am going to see if I can work this material in with the JGF Jazz Blues book, and another called The Blues Scales. I noticed all three teach shapes and scales, and then give you some nice licks and solos for you to use. The key in all of them, as was mentioned previously in this thread, seems to be to learn to associate the notes with the shapes and scales.
After dropping everything and restarting with Jazz Blues a couple of months or so ago, I am finding that I can associate a note in the shape/pattern with a sound, which is starting to allow me to sing and play what I sing, knowing how the next note or collection of notes will sound. I have a couple of favorite starting points when playing a line (such as the b3 and especially the "Blue Note" of the major and minor Blues scales, and of course, the root) and what has been important for me is the note that I come to rest on since is can sound unresolved or resolved.
Anyway, thanks for your inputs on this thread and I will see if I can work some of this material in. I am going to listen to the CD again and see if I can get inspired by one of his solos.
Sorry about the long post. I am good for this from time to time. Take care, folks and I wish you continued success and progress.
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Alright.
I have read the book from cover to cover. The first different arpeggios and scales of the first four shapes I am familiar with. The last two are a little foreign.
I guess I am just going to take some inspiration from Mr. JazzinNY and stop all that I am doing to learn the first solo.
My only question is, should you be visualizing the shapes from the start while you learn the solo, or could you learn the solo and then go back to the shapes?
Because I like the song, I am going to take the first approach since I don't seem to have good luck breaking solos I already know back down to their basic chords, arpeggios, and scales.
This approach is interesting. I especially like the way everything is pretty much all in one or two positions on the fretboard.
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Quote by AlsoRan:
"My only question is, should you be visualizing the shapes from the start while you learn the solo, or could you learn the solo and then go back to the shapes?"
Hey, someone kicked this thread and woke us up! (rubs eyes, stretches arms, yawns). Aah, hey, I like it.
Anyway, to answer your question: you can do it in any order. BUT to get the most out of the method, at some point you have to associate the lick to the shape. Now this is where it gets tricky, because personally I find some disagreements with the shapes posted in the book. In those cases I write in my own interpretation.
So the idea is, at some point you play the solo (memorized) and call out the shapes as you go over them (and quickly visualize them). I don't use "Shape 1" etc., I have descriptive terms like "F hook" or "F Y" or "C long".
Personally I only memorize a few choruses at a time. I'm currently trying to nail the last 3 choruses of Solo 1, then I will do 1st 2, then do similarly on Solo 2.
A few notes: sometimes he will go into, say, a C shape a measure early. This threw me off for a while. But in the blues there is a lot of interchangeable stuff. In this case I'll call out "early C". And one more thing, from my observation the last few measures of each chorus don't strictly follow any one shape -- I just call out "turnaround".
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[QUOTE=AlsoRan;537466]
Because I like the song, I am going to take the first approach since I don't seem to have good luck breaking solos I already know back down to their basic chords, arpeggios, and scales.
QUOTE]
JazzinNY responded to this but I want to reinforce a few points. First, take the solo a chorus at a time. Some will come more easily than others.
Second, I think it helps to see the shapes as you learn the lines. What Herb is teaching is a way of organizing the fretboard. (Jimmy Bruno's approach is a lot like this, only he uses "five fingerings" of the major scale whereas Herb uses only three, but with shifts to connect them.) Eventually, you will be able to vary the lines but the foundation you need for that is knowing how to play the lines you hear in your head wherever you happen to be on the guitar neck. That's where the shapes come in.
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This book presents that challenge that a lot of instructional books and systems present and that's the challenge of seeing a framework or shape that the notes of a solo are hung on. I am glad that it is in a limited area of the fretboard. This gives me a better chance of being able to memorize and internalize it.
I have also noticed a few notes outside the shapes, such as a flat five that was thrown in on a C7 shape. In just about every book I have, when authors are playing solos to demonstrate the use of shapes or scales I often notice they can't help buy add in some passing tones here and there. This used to bother me but now I understand that as with everything in life, there are deviations, exceptions, and outliers.
I hope you folks stay encouraged. For the curious, I will check back with my progress and personal thoughts. So far, I have memorized the first chorus and am unable to resist pushing forward since I have a little extra time.
My weakness is learning/memorizing songs without learning from them. I hope to avoid that this time. Everything else (guitar-wise) is on hold until I get this song down.
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It helps to play the scale patterns from the first chapter. (This isn't about pounding scales every day but you need to know those notes in the shapes.) As for the extra notes, there's a lot of that as you go on. But the beauty of this is that you learn the shapes and that gives you your "anchor" tones (chord tones), as Carol Kaye calls them. A lot of the other tones are used in passing between those tones and once you get that, develop a feel for it, it's easier to think about the simple shape and connecting the tones than it is to think of scales and modes. It makes things sound like music rather than scales. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
This also makes it easier to move things around. (When you learn the first solo in C, you will find it is easy to shift the whole thing and play it in Bb. But F will be different....)
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After reading your post, I am surrendering to Herb, Don Mock, and others who want you to see a basic chord shape inside of patterns, chord scales, and modes. These "anchor" notes, which is a great term. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Consider my mindset changed, now that I have room in my brain to do this. I will use this book as a starting point.
I have plenty of other books, such as the aforementioned Don Mock's on Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minot that has nice diagrams with scale patterns built around a particular chord shape. I just hated learning a chord shape along with a scale pattern.
I will see how this works out...
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I have never seen this before. Its a Herb Ellis book of guitar transcriptions of some of his songs.
Amazon.com: Best of Herb Ellis: Artist Transcriptions for Guitar (9781480383647): Herb Ellis: Books
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I have that. It's very good. I'm working on the "Pickly Wickly" solo now and really love it. It's from Herb's tribute to Charlie Christian album. Not as fast as some of the tunes in that book ("Naptown Blues", "Somebody Loves Me" and "Stuffy" with Joe Pass race by) but not a ballad either. The solo has a bit of everything in it: bends, slides, chromatics, licks, melody... Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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I've posted this before, though I don't think on this thread. It's a video of Herb Ellis playing blues without accompaniment. Though more challenging than anything in "Swing Blues" it allows you to do something "Swing Blues" does not: namely, see Herb's hands in action on the guitar. It's clear that he practiced what he preached.
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Super late to this party. Just ordered Swing Blues.
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Great! Glad to have you. Originally Posted by barrymclark
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Thanks! I don't really know how far everyone is in to this or how regimented it is. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I have had issues getting into jazz but after I came across Richard Ralston's Blues Jazz primer, something has seemed to click. So I am trying to run out this blues jazz thing. I came across another thread mentioning the Herb Ellis book and then this thread. I hope I don't hold anyone up.
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For any of you paying attention, would you say solo #1 is a Major Jazz Blues song? It sounds so happy all the way through. It kind of reminds me of backing music for a happy movie with a wonderful, whimsical character in the lead role, going through life.
This is so different from the somber blues I am used to, and the use of the Minor Pentatonic and Minor Blues Scales.
Also, I am not used to "happy Blues" and I go for the more intense sound. But this is nice - kind of like some of BB King's happy Blues songs.
I have also never used Mixolydian much, so this is another step in my slow, Jazz journey.
I wonder if play C Mixolydian over C7 would be a little too consonant, and might be lacking tension? Of course, one can pick and choose one's spots of when to use it. And I guess that b7 in the mode could temper the happiness of the major 3rd.
Just some thoughts. I have around two pages left to learn this solo, then the plan is to start relating the phrases to the various shapes.
Happy playing.
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From learning Jimmy Bruno's five fingerings, I've also come to relate them to major 7 chords in five positions...."get a grip" in any of the five chord positions, and my fingers are instantly in place for major scales or improv.
Practice chords and scales together.
From there, easy to modify fingerings for minor, dominant, or whatever is needed.
But the starting place is locked in five positions.
Here is a PDF of my five "Pitch Collection Reference Voicings" (order of PCs is 2, 3, 5, 6, 7):Last edited by boatheelmusic; 06-08-2015 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Added PDF
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Yes, it's a major blues. (Major in the sense that the I chord is a chord with a major third, a dominant 7th in this case, and in most cases with the blues...) Originally Posted by AlsoRan
All the blues in this book are major in that sense.
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Mine should be here Thursday. I can then make a fool of myself to this group as well as the others I already do this with. Ha ha
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Thanks! Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
I know Jimmy's five fingerings. (I play them every day.) Herb prefers three fingerings with shifts but they're closely related. (A lot of country / blues / rock / roots players seem to have hit on the shapes Herb, following Charlie Christian, played out of.)
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Don't worry about it. Life is for learning. Originally Posted by barrymclark
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Artur Lang
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