Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 16 & 17

[fep]

We have been spending quite a bit of time on chapters 13, 14 & 15. I wanted to start this thread in anticipation of someone wanting to move on to these chapters. (I'm not ready quite yet).

Chapter 16 - Harmonizing the Melodic Minor Scale for Altered Dominants

- To expand our use of the melodic minor scale
- To learn to use the arpeggios created by harmonizing the melodic minor scale
- To learn the basic concept of exploiting the melodic minor scale arpeggios for use as "color note" options in the common situations.

Chapter 17 - Harmonizing the Melodic Minor Scale for Minor 7(b5) Chords

- To expand our use of the melodic minor scale
- To learn to use the arpeggios created by harmonizing the melodic minor scale for mi7(b5) chords

______________________________________


Interesting, this is something I've never used or practiced.

Enjoy the practice and playing.

Cheers

[Frank67]

Thanks Frank!

I plan to spend more time on chapters 13-15 as I feel I need to have this internalized to the point that it feels easy before tackling the remaining material.

Cheers,
Frank

[JazzReggie]

It seems like chapters 13-15 are a natural place to consolidate what we've learned and focus more on application for a while. After finishing chapters 13-15, do you feel you need more options and tools before playing tunes and building a repertoire?

The remaining chapters look quite interesting and I'm sure they add a lot of colour, but for someone like myself who's still fairly new to jazz guitar, this is already a lot of new material for me to take in. I'm now able to outline the changes to basic jazz tunes and have some options to add colour for most chords.

I suppose it somewhat depends on your experience level before starting the book. For me though, I'm starting to feel that I'm approaching a tipping point, beyond which I'll start forgetting what I've learned if I don't spend more time applying it rather than adding new knowledge.

[fep]

It seems like chapters 13-15 are a natural place to consolidate what we've learned and focus more on application for a while. After finishing chapters 13-15, do you feel you need more options and tools before playing tunes and building a repertoire?

Hi Reggie,

That is a great point. I've been "getting by" for a long time without using the modes of the melodic minor. So by the time I got to chapters 13-15 I was not only on to new material, the altered scale and locrian #2 scale, I also had become much better at outlining changes.

I think this book was used for more than one semester in MIT curriculum. Chapter 15 seems like where a semester would end.

I think you don't need more options and tools before playing tunes and building repertoire.

I am determined to finish the book though. But, to your point maybe it's better to; 1) work through more tunes using the inserting and disguising licks method and 2) start a review from chapter 1 to chapter 15.

[Dana]

I read the chapters last night. Might take me awhile to put something together as I'm already taking lessons via correspondence and my teacher gives a lot of homework.

One could spend 6 months working on these later chapters just to get the concepts down. I find that typical once one progresses beyond the basics.

Nevertheless, I'll try and post something in the next week or so.

[stevebellinger]

Hi All,

Sticking with 13/14/15 to get a few more standards under the belt with what we have learned so far.

Franks Tune Up (one I'm struggling with) is the only major 251 vid put up at the moment, so a few more vids on 14/15

Before I move on to 16/17.

great job Steve

[stevebellinger]

Hi all,
Some 251 licks, 2 Maj pattern I, 2 Maj pattern III, 2 Min pattern II, 2 Min pattern IV using diatonic subs, Locrian#2 and Arpeggios from the melodic minor. Let,s all push on

[Dana]

Great job Steve. I need to get back on track with this book. I've been studying with a teacher who's been giving me plenty of things to work on, which hasn't left me with much free time. Sounds like you're making progress!

[Frank67]

Very nice Steve! Sounds very smooth and relaxed!

i realize that i have never followed up on the earlier chapters as planned. I am currently preparing to go to a nice gypsy jazz workshop in two weeks. After that would be a good opportunity to follow up on these chapters and do some licks.

I noticed during practicing that i lost a bit of discipline in sticking with the premade eigth note licks - but I also noticed that practicing them has been a big help. Lately i have been more into learning arpeggios plus selected color tones (e.g. a dominant seventh arpeggio plus a #5 and a b9). i somehow find that easier to remember than to do all the substitution and scale thinking on the fly and then it come easier to me while improvising.

Anyways - it was enjoyable to listen to you - as always! Thanks for waking me up :-)
cheers,
Frank

[stevebellinger]

Hi Frank,

Have a good time in italy.

Steve

[stevebellinger]

Great job Steve. I need to get back on track with this book. I've been studying with a teacher who's been giving me plenty of things to work on, which hasn't left me with much free time. Sounds like you're making progress!

Hi Dana,

Never enough hours in our lives!!

Steve

[znerken]

Did you guys find that it helps a lot to harmonize the altered scale?(MM)

I talked to the author, and he said my solos didn't quite make sense, and he recommended me to move on to this chapter, as that would help me pick the correct notes, just like you use arpeggios from the major scale to do the same over other chords.

[znerken]

I guess to rephrase my question, is that a normal approach in the journey of becoming a better jazz soloist? I mean, so much work done already, and still it sounds shit

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yea it helped. This section was the best thing I got out of that book. Learn some altered arps for sure...

[znerken]

One thing I realized is that the author seems to have made his arpeggios from the diatonic major 7 shapes, instead of directly making them from the altered scale. I think that is a little cumbersome, thoughts? I would imagine them being directly connected to the altered scale shape makes it a little easier.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yeah. I use a lot of them. You develop favorites. I parted ways with the CAGED organization around melodic minor while working with that book though. For me personally, CAGED really jumped the shark with MM. I started using Reg's organization for playing melodic minor, and it made a profound difference in my understanding and ability to actually use it, again, for me personally.

Among other things, the theory part and relationships to major/minor. In not quite understandings you're question re M7, but it's related to an understanding of MM in the first place. M7#5 is MM, but not M7.

[znerken]

Yeah. I use a lot of them. You develop favorites. I parted ways with the CAGED organization around melodic minor while working with that book though. For me personally, CAGED really jumped the shark with MM. I started using Reg's organization for playing melodic minor, and it made a profound difference in my understanding and ability to actually use it, again, for me personally.

Among other things, the theory part and relationships to major/minor. In not quite understandings you're question re M7, but it's related to an understanding of MM in the first place. M7#5 is MM, but not M7.

Well to further explain, since I did it a little unclearly. Take the maj7#5, as an example. The altered patterns(mm) in the book are not made out in a way, where you could just alter the major/minor arpeggios you have already learned. You often stretch outside the altered shape if you use the original arpeggios modified. Therefore I think it’s better to create new arpeggio patterns that follow the melodic minor pattern learned exactly. Makes you visualize stuff better. I mean the goal should be for the major and minor scales, in your 4-5 fret span to be as close as possible to your altered scale.

Why would you stretch so far out on the 5th string, when you don’t play the scale that way originally?

[znerken]

By The way, I just want to say that regarding scale systems. 5 position systems seems to get some critique on this forum. To the potential beginner reading, it can be perhaps misleading. Barry Greene learned the well known Modern Method approach, and he uses CAGED/5 position what ever you want to call it. I think it’s up to each player to just choose what they like. Not intended against you Matt, just felt the need to say it. It is all about how you visualize stuff, the notes are the same :-) What I think is most important is relating chords to the patterns.

[matt.guitarteacher]

By The way, I just want to say that regarding scale systems. 5 position systems seems to get some critique on this forum. To the potential beginner reading, it can be perhaps misleading. Barry Greene learned the well known Modern Method approach, and he uses CAGED/5 position what ever you want to call it. I think it’s up to each player to just choose what they like. Not intended against you Matt, just felt the need to say it. It is all about how you visualize stuff, the notes are the same :-) What I think is most important is relating chords to the patterns.

Right, but that's the point. If it doesn't relate to the patterns in a logical way...

The question you're asking in the post just before, about trying to make sense of that maj7#5 is exactly what led me to look at a different approach. I don't finger that arp that way. The way I finger it lines up with my scale fingerings.

[znerken]

Right, but that's the point. If it doesn't relate to the patterns in a logical way...

The question you're asking in the post just before, about trying to make sense of that maj7#5 is exactly what led me to look at a different approach. I don't finger that arp that way. The way I finger it lines up with my scale fingerings.

It lines up with my scale fingering as well. That’s just the way the author wrote it, you can adjust it however you want?

[matt.guitarteacher]

It lines up with my scale fingering as well. That’s just the way the author wrote it, you can adjust it however you want?

I don't know about the term "can". The way he fingers it is the way he fingers it . Many would call that the "right way", if you're studying from THAT book. I'm sure I learned that way at one point.

[znerken]

I don't know about the term "can". The way he fingers it is the way he fingers it . Many would call that the "right way", if you're studying from THAT book. I'm sure I learned that way at one point.

I have talked to the author about that. He just does what is comfortable. Just look at all the different way all kinds of 5 position players play a melodic minor scale. Some stretch, some dont. It's a matter of preference. Some of the authors positions use stretches, some jump to the next screen. He is not using one specific approach.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I have talked to the author about that. He just does what is comfortable. Just look at all the different way all kinds of 5 position players play a melodic minor scale. Some stretch, some dont. It's a matter of preference. Some of the authors positions use stretches, some jump to the next screen. He is not using one specific approach.

For sure. You can try various different ways and see which one works best for fingerings etc. That's quite a process in and of itself. Then, there are other considerations such as how well it lines up with the scale fingering reference or with the original major/minor key reference, so that it actually makes sense in your mind, on the fly.

Personally, like many here, I don't have time for too much of that. A lot of people just blow off melodic minor altogether, as a result of this common frustration, For learn for few fills to kind of cover for basic. I wanted to learn melodic minor, how it works on the fretboard, and how to use it if I want.

[fep]

I included the altered scale (a scale based off of the melodic minor scale) in my lick writting but I never harmonized the melodic minor scale or practiced the melodic minor scale arpeggios. I only got through chapter 15 I believe. I hope to finish the bood someday.

[rintincop]

I have been thinking and playing melodic minor modes on jazz piano for 30 years now. In my opinion the tonic mode in Cmi , C-6 (maj7) and the 2nd mode D susb9 and the 7th mode B7alt are the only ones I find useful to employ (visualize). I personally find its 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th modes un-useful.