-
It seems there are a couple ways to think about this.
Here's an overly simplified example - for a G dominant 7 sound you want to play:
G A B C D E F G
(excluding alterations and chromatics for now).
i.e. a G mixolydian scale.
The way I currently find this on the guitar is by first thinking "c major", which involves some thought process to do the conversion ("go up a fourth or down a fifth and play it's major scale.") I guess this because the major scale is so fundamental, it's an easy "crutch" to get the mode I want. I'm not certain, but it seems like this is actually the approach advocated by more theory based guys like Mark Levine (The Jazz Theory Book). In this methodology, you only have to learn the Major, Melodic Minor, Diminished and WholeTone scales patterns, for each of the 12 keys (48 some-odd scales?), and be able to do quick modal conversions in realtime.
The other approach would be to just learn the G Mixolydian scale (or "G Dom7 Scale", as Ted Greene calls it in his books). That is, if a G7 chord pops up in a tune, I should instantly go to G mixolydian, and skip thinking of the parent C major scale. With this approach, there's no shortcuts so you will actually need to learn something like 96 scales, but not need to do any mental conversion while playing.
This example gets really more relavant, once you get to something like a G#11b13. Do you just instantly fall into G altered scale, or do you go to 7th mode of A melodic minor?
My gut feeling wants to go with the "chord/scale method" (Ted Greene), and just know how to play a G alt scale as needed. Seems like the former approach would involve something like "OK, 7th mode of melodic minor... I'm in G, which is 7th of... A, so A melodic minor... ok A major with a natural C... phew! ok... oops that bar is already over, dang!"
Just wondering how you think of it, or if it's some combination, or I'm just missing something essential. Thanks!Last edited by Hoji; 01-12-2013 at 12:08 PM.
-
01-12-2013 12:06 PM
-
I too used to do that to get me started with improv but many of the greats that I've either read, taken lessons with or otherwise studied indictae there's just not enough time in real world on-the-bandstand playing to think "what parent does this child belong to?"
Gary Burton was my most recent teacher who advocates this.
Bruce Arnold also goes so far as to advise re: identifying the sound of intervals - NOT to take common beginning melodies P5=Twinkle Twinkle et al as your way to identify them. By the time you do the mental calisthenics, the band is 4 bars ahead of you. Makes sense actually when you try this.
So many advocate getting the SOUND of that scale in your ear/fingers through basic ear training and muscle memory. This way you already PRE-hear that scale when you hear that chord (or "x" of scales "sounds") and BOOM >>>> P L A Y I T.
~Jeff
-
But that approach takes a long time to develop, so that means you need to play that scale of that chord for a few months or maybe even a year to fully develop that sense of ear.
A lot of times I just memorize all 7 modes of the scale (or 5, pentatonic) and I see that there are only 6 possibilities of playing over a chord. I think of it like if I am at the 12th fret and suddenly a G alt chord comes up, I need to know which MM scale/pattern to play (as the guitar is very pattern oriented...) Or maybe you are in 5th position and a D7#11 shows up. Well, A MM is right there, perfect! The only options are that you are currently just below the current chord that has an E string root (I visualize the chord form as I play, helps see chord tones.) So for example, you are in 2nd position and A7 comes up, you are below the chord. Next possibility is you are right on the chord with E string root. Next possibility is you are above (7 or 8th position for A7) Then what about if you are way above the E string root chord...well now you are starting over that same thing, but with the Astring root chord. Because if you are at 10th position now, then you are below the A string root A7.
That's how I do it most of the time if I want to really nail the sound of the chord or hit all the alterations.
Also, I see upper extensions in the chord and the chord tones, which is essential otherwise you are just playing the scale and you don't know what notes to resolve your line on.
-
I don't think
g a b c d e f g
or
c d e f g a b c
I think
... (arbitrary first note) a b c d e f g a b c d e f g a b c d e f g ... like a road stretching off in both directions.
or rather over G7 I think
... a B c D e F G a B c D e F G a B c D e F G ...
and when I hit CMaj7 I think
... a B C d E f G a B C d E f G a B C d E f G ...
And I see this as patterns on the neck.
-
this will get you "the right notes" but until you *hear* the sound you're making, you're always relying on "shapes" "patterns" which always make you sound like, well.....a pattern player (something guitarists are notorious for). You'll know this when you find you're in a rut and maybe don't know why. Mileage may vary cuz you may dig what you're playing too for ever, no worries, enjoy...not for me to say.
I'm a saxophonist first, then took up guitar so I have no shapes to rely on. As soon as you change a key so I have to go for the sound if I'm at any medium tempo upwards. But the reward is you PRE-hear which taps into the creative Source and this will connect to an energy that your audience will resonate with. This is somewhat BEYOND thought and the scope of this forum.
It takes time to be sure, but gosh the rewards are very gratifying to having to remember patterns and "where am I" abd "where is this chord"?
Oh Howard Roberts had a great tip I remember. Play ONE position, all keys, all modes slowly,,,mix in your intervals, chords everything. I mean it's all there under all 4 fingers with a single fret stretch up or down. FREEING
Do everything...reflect....Enjoy the process
-
good old Howard Roberts...
Have four of his books...
learned much and followed his techniques to this day...
only time on the instrument will tell...
play on ..... .......
-
My default with any piece of music is to identify the chord tones. Those notes 'light up' on the neck for me. From there, my application really depends on what is going on - are the chords functioning? is it modal? is the key center shifting? That will determine what set of notes I pull from and what notes I stress.
-
Neither approach worked for me, although chord scales at least relate the intervals to the root of the current chord, whereas key centred approaches relate the notes to the original key.
I think some of the reasons that scales and modes don't work for some is that we don't actually play scales when we play for the most part, and the chords change fairly quickly, or you use portions of different scales in one phrase, etc.
However both of these are a little too vertically focused if you follow me. Once I started to focus on the line itself things started to work better. So for the line I mean what are the rhythms, how long is the phrase, when does it start and stop, what is the contour of the phrase and the overall solo.
Chord tones are a nice idea and voice leading a smooth line through chords but making up a melodic line using guide tones or voice leading can be a challenging task. But they often help you to hear the chord changes.
I like to think of scales as just note choices or an organization of intervals for discussion.
So a focus on melodic lines and phrases (from transcriptions and then modified), developing rhythms/motifs might be the way to go for you.
-
Thanks, guys. Lots of perspectives to think about. Saxguy, your point is intriguing. It sounds like you don't really "think" of scales or chords when making up melodic lines - you just hear something in your head and your fingers know where those notes are? That's definitely where I'd like to get. But surely you practiced scales at some point, no? So if I'm practicing, for example I could think "I am playing a G alt scale" vs. "I am playing the 7th mode of Ab mm". It sounds like what you are saying is - don't think of either way, just think of it as "the notes that make this sort of sound, which happens to work well with a this particular harmony."
-
I find it amusing that many of the same people who argue against "derivative" thinking because it takes too much time and mental gymnastics, are the same people who also talk about using x mode over this chord, OK next chord now use x mode, OK next chord use x mode, etc...
Originally Posted by saxguy
Not saying one is better than the other, but come on.
-
Oh yes that would be funny, but in my experience they (the teachers I happen to be talking about) simply use their ears for the sound they wish to play. Stan Getz is another AMAZING example of the greatest, let's call them "organic" players who do this and couldn't read a lick of music. Gary Burton said you couldn't talk to Stan and ask him what kind of chord or scale do you want me to play behind you in this measure? He couldn't answer. He just said "I don't know just play the RIGHT one" haha. Stan had ridculously keen ears.
But to the rest of us mortals, YES of course you go along the path in the evolution of your playing abosrbing everything you can about what gets you to something you feel works for the time you are doing it. Then you stumble upon perhaps this route or that to take you here and there. This would include "derivitive" thinking. Funnier still when one can analyze something several different ways!
Ever seen those Joe Pass videos (or actually not a few) where he plays something and tries to analyze it and goes "..and this is a...a.. let's see.....a G7.....aaa.........11". Then he goes "I just think "G7" cuz that's what it is" <stares at the camera>.
Use them all I say...then just hear what it sounds like....apply muscle memory along with the ear training ....play what you hear, not what you know <Miles>.
In the end, you can't get it wrong, because there ultimately there is no right or wrong, and you're all doing beautifully with it.
Peace!
-
Originally Posted by Hoji
oh hell yeah dude! Still play scales of course, they're beautiful sounding. We could play anything, record it and then say where it came from but names (and patterns and rote and othes solos etc etc) ultimately will not be where you want to be. Certainly not in the heat of performance.
Lester Young loved "the sound" of a 6th and a 9th (major AND minor) so he HEARD what that sounded like and milked a career out of it.
Lots of other examples but use whatever gets the sound in your ears - i.e. Ab mm notes AGAINST G7. soon you're seeing G7 only and applying the right tensions WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO BE becuase you already pre-hear them before you play them. Sing while you play/practice...does wonders, like a mirror!
-
Well, to play what you hear you gotta KNOW an awful lot...another misunderstood quote.
The bandstand isn't the place for any "what should I play?" thinking. All of that is for practice.
When practicing, I don't often think about scales...I think about the melodic line, guide tones, and color I want to touch on...that's what I practice. Scales are a part of that, but only when they're the most logical way to think.
-
I found that the actual playing of Arps round a TUNE
and playing heads
and you're fave transcribed licks
and do a little bit of analysing
note :not heavy stuff just the amount of it so that you can explain to yourself
where you are with respect to the Tonic Key (and chord of the moment if needed)
that this is the fastest way to internalise the actual architecture of music/tunes
so eventually you can hear stuff in your head
and find and play it on the instument ..... faster and faster till hopefully one day
you can do it in real time .... hurrah !
Hmmm I'll let you know if/when I get there !
Disclaimer : thats just me and I expect there are myriad ways of learning 'the sound of music'
and you will find you're own way if you keep exposing yourself to all the different music ,teachers ,
players, approaches , books etc etc
eventually stuff clicks and you'll find yourself hearing something groovy one day and thinking
oh I think i know what that is !!
-
I attended the Peter Bernsein Workshop the other day and one of the pearls was
something to the effect of
"practice to get your ears strong"
"don't worry so much about the scale /speed/dexterity thing etc
that will come along for the ride anyway"
hmmmm
-
Any technique practicing I've done in the past few years has been a direct need/result of my ears getting better and hearing something I couldn't yet play, or being able to cop a lick my hands couldn't get together...which is not to say my technique is great...but neither are my ears, yet.
-
mr.B, cool. To all readers of this thread: Listen to Charlie Parker play "White Christmas" from the Complete Live Performances on Savoy. It's all about the melody. Everything he does on this genius piece of improv is based on Irving Berlin's melody. Even though he's blazing through the changes, the melody is ever present. And he knows the parent key and all scales inside out. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Wow, I like where this thread is going. Really opening my eyes..., er, ears.
So, I've been practicing playing all modes of all keys, all in the same position. Challenging! Since I don't have all the patterns internalized in muscle memory, but can pretty much HEAR how it should sound (i.e. I can hear if the next note should be maj 2nd, min 2nd). I have to think about how to play that interval from the current note, while staying in position. In theory, this should train hands to respond to auditory thought.
Reply With Quote
Ben Monder talks Emily
Today, 04:08 PM in The Songs