Baroque improvisation books

[Jazzguitarsussx]

Does anyone know of any baroque style improv for jazz guitar books. Ie improvisation in this style over jazz standards ala Ted Greene (see link below)
There's stuff on line but am looking for an actual book..
Thanks!

[loydb]

Maybe get Fuch's _Counterpoint_ and spend some time trying to apply it?

[Jazzguitarsussx]

Thanks, yes was thinking maybe get a classical book n apply it..

[wkriski]

I transcribed a couple of Ted's baroque vids and was getting into this style. I couldn't find any books that were very helpful but here are a few concepts to work things through:

-Open triads can be very helpful. I also like just 2 notes, bass and melody to start with
-Cycle of fourths is very common movement so work out a bass line with that root motion as well as descending chromatically.
-For melodies (in both upper and lower parts) work on a variety of sequences.
-take ideas from ted's improv as well as baroque/classical piece. For example examine Bourree in E minor and use some of the ideas in there, from chord movements, sequences, etc.
-work on modulation to other keys as well as making certain chords a secondary dominant (similar to jazz)

With a few typical chord moves (cycle of fourths, chromatic) and modulation you can improvise for quite some time.

I have a baroque improv course from all my findings but that is online, which you don't want. Hope my post helps!

[jasonc]

Steve Herberman is the guy you want to check out. He is the student in the video by the way. Here's a link to one of his classes at Mikes Masterclasses. http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/in...mart&Itemid=32

[Jazzguitarsussx]

I transcribed a couple of Ted's baroque vids and was getting into this style. I couldn't find any books that were very helpful but here are a few concepts to work things through:

-Open triads can be very helpful. I also like just 2 notes, bass and melody to start with
-Cycle of fourths is very common movement so work out a bass line with that root motion as well as descending chromatically.
-For melodies (in both upper and lower parts) work on a variety of sequences.
-take ideas from ted's improv as well as baroque/classical piece. For example examine Bourree in E minor and use some of the ideas in there, from chord movements, sequences, etc.
-work on modulation to other keys as well as making certain chords a secondary dominant (similar to jazz)

With a few typical chord moves (cycle of fourths, chromatic) and modulation you can improvise for quite some time.

I have a baroque improv course from all my findings but that is online, which you don't want. Hope my post helps!

Thanks! Im gonna learn some more Bach n analyse it thoroughly!

[Jazzguitarsussx]

Thanks Jason ill check out the link!

[Jazzguitarsussx]

Steve Herberman is the guy you want to check out. He is the student in the video by the way. Here's a link to one of his classes at Mikes Masterclasses. http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/in...mart&Itemid=32

I downloaded it, thanks I'm gonna learn lots from this!
does anyone know how to download the class purchased onto your iPad and play it while offline?
Ive no Internet at home, it says it's possible but can't figure it out...

[Takemitsu]

This is an oldish thread but its what im digging right now and here is the procedure I founded helped me the most.

1)Learn triads major, minor, diminished and augmented and their inversions on string group 1-2-3 and 2-3-4. (not as hard as it seem)

2)buy the Bach fakebook or any Bach Music (I use the chorals) Analyse it and write down triad and inversions (with slash chords)
ex: Eb/G

3)Play the left chord triad and add the Bass note. There is always a good solution.

4)while holding the chord see how much leeway you got with the top note for melody improv

5)Drop the middle notes, keep the bass and see how much you can improvise with the top note

6)Drop everything improvise and catch the next chord on the next downbeat

7)learn to move all those chord shapes in a chord scale manner. (4 notes) Try to identify on which degree of the current tonality you are so you can move within the scale.

tipsrop as much 7th in your basic chords. Maj7 is (rarely) an end of phrase material in classical music
also, Try to always keep 4 notes in your basic (comping) chording even if you are only playing triads. The doubled note can become a passing notes and this is how you get EbMaj#9b5/D sound in classical music

This is where I am right now. I do NOT master all this stuff (far from it) but its a lot of fun!

[VKat]

I think this old thread should always be on top.
Why?
Because Jazz didn't add much new to the pinnacle of the music development in late Baroque period. The harmony was at its best and J.S.Bach and his great sons proved it.
Many compare Bebop and Baroque music styles and it's quite a fair comparison in certain contexts, not always of course.

At some point I also was interested in "Baroque improvisation method" specifically for guitar but I quickly realized that such method is unlikely to exist. This is simply because to have such a method written is exactly the same thing as having a course in "Baroque music composition course for guitar".
If you think a little such a course in its original form would only be possible if someone back in the Baroque time wrote it and it would be re-discovered nowdays and re-printed (after being translated most likely from Latin or German).

So, what are we left with?

1. First and most obvious thing - "reverse engineering" in its various forms applied to Baroque composition. Ted Greene was a good example of such an engineer.

2. However Ted wasn't simply a genius who listened to Bach and derived some common principles of his compositional methods just listening to his music for hours. (Though I wonder if he could... who knows?)
Ted highly regarded the C.P.E. Bach's "Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments"
https://www.amazon.com/Essay-True-Pl.../dp/0393097161

Yes, it's for keyboard, but I assume you don't aim at playing Baroque in tab? If you do - well, your best friends are probably pedals and FR - never mind :-)

3. There are a few other methods in print (and out of print but they are out there - wink-wink ;-) ) for piano that teach Common Practice Period improvisation.

4. A huge number of compositional and harmony methods by various authors are a must for understanding the Baroque improvisation which is - let's be honest with ourselves - is simply a Baroque composition in real time.

So, if you want to freely improvise in the Baroque style and sound authentic you basically have to be able to compose Baroque music in real time. Which is... not easy - to say the least.
You know why?

Here is just a few thoughts why.
Through recent musicological research it was proven that Baroque composers didn't think:
"i-VI-ii-V-i" or maybe "i-V-i-IV-V" etc.
They didn't know what those numbers meant! In fact they would be absolutely meaningless to them. They of course knew of the chord rpogressions and cadences but they would never assign numbers to chord degrees based on the scale degrees.
How did they compose then you would ask? - They were thinking intervalically and contrapuntually at the same time, being also aware of phrasing, motives and cadences. Solfege also played great role in their craft.

It was J.P.Rameau who introduced the concept of chord inversions in his "Treatise on Harmony" in 1722.
It's said that after this treatise was out in print a huge number of mediocre composers flooded the music scene because composition methods became seemingly so simple overnight.
Imagine that since then in order to be a successful composer you only had to know your chord inversions theory instead of learning practical methods of composition based on the Thorough Bass that for people like C.P.E.Bach it would take years and decades to learn.

Keep in mind also the fact that all those great Baroque composers lived in that particular time music environment. That kind of music was everywhere and they were a part of the community that made that music possible.

There are quite a few more things to add here in defence of the idea that Baroque composition (or improvisation if you like) is a far more complicated craft than soloing over ii-V's but you have to reasearch yourself if you are interested in the subject.
Just think of the simple fact that you are not allowed to have 2 parallel 5ths or 8ths in a row and you will already appreciate the craft of those Baroque composers who managed to keep track of those and many other hard and soft rules that were in the foundation of the style.
Yes, baby, it's not that dumb Rock&Roll :-)

[P4guitar]

This book looks perfect:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-413-...12S2DQW8FQ29P3

Look at some of the pages, it's just how I would like it described.

[VKat]

This book looks perfect:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-413-...12S2DQW8FQ29P3

Look at some of the pages, it's just how I would like it described.

Yes but it's again the same mistake: It's analyzed with the method derived from the theory of J.P.Rameau and J.S.Bach didn't know what that "ii-V-i" was.

I want to clarify one important idea behind my collection of thoughts I posted above.
Some will probably say aloud: "What the F@#$ is this all about?"
That's probably what J.S.Bach would exlaim if someone showed him his chorales analyzed with "ii-V-i"s.

So, I'm getting to the point: there is a difference between 'Baroque-style improvisation' and 'Baroque-like style improvisation'. That's what my above post is about in short :-)

[P4guitar]

I agree the Bach wouldn't initially understand the modern perspective, but I'm sure he'd quickly catch on. And it's possible that the Baroque way is the superior way, I won't argue...but I don't accept it either.

That said, I don't think anyone will want to go back to Bach's old way of doing things...if that's what you're arguing. Harder is not necessarily better.

Many people like myself enjoy the music, certainly enjoyed Ted Greene's playing in that style, and want to try it themselves. The problem is they/we/I don't think like Bach so the system presented in that book I linked to above is conveyed using today's musical lexicon which means lesser beings can more easily understand it. I'd settle for getting a leg up, even if it means being a faux-Bach

This is after all, what the OP asked for.

[dasein]

I think this old thread should always be on top.
Why?
Because Jazz didn't add much new to the pinnacle of the music development in late Baroque period.

Rhythm.

[Rob MacKillop]

Check out the video classes by Gilad Hekselman on JazzHeaven:

http://jazzheaven.com/videos/how-to-...y-masterclass/

[VKat]

I agree the Bach wouldn't initially understand the modern perspective, but I'm sure he'd quickly catch on. And it's possible that the Baroque way is the superior way, I won't argue...but I don't accept it either.

That said, I don't think anyone will want to go back to Bach's old way of doing things...if that's what you're arguing. Harder is not necessarily better.

Many people like myself enjoy the music, certainly enjoyed Ted Greene's playing in that style, and want to try it themselves. The problem is they/we/I don't think like Bach so the system presented in that book I linked to above is conveyed using today's musical lexicon which means lesser beings can more easily understand it. I'd settle for getting a leg up, even if it means being a faux-Bach

This is after all, what the OP asked for.

I can't argue with you either because it's better to eat half-baked something rather not to eat at all.
However it's important to understand that an approach completely biased towards chordal (vertical) thinking in Baroque idiom is not how this music was originally concieved.
It's important to get solid grasp of how at least two outer voices (bass and soprano) progress in relation to each other. Modern harmonic thinking should be second but of course we can't dismiss it simply because we were taught it first.

Anyway, that time's gone and the way that music was crafted is not accessible any longer. We have to accept what we can come up with reagrdless of whether it's faux or not.
However - we are in good luck: there are tones of the original Baroque scores available to us and we can enjoy the music of the masters knowing that hopefully we can't go wrong interpreting them (nevertheless there is always a risk that something is not interpreted as intended ).

[Takemitsu]

Bach had a treatise by Friedrich Erhard Niedt. If you look on the internet you can probably see that it is indeed a vertical (harmonic) thinking and Bach used extensively the idea. preludes for WTC book 1 in C and c minor are just that. They are taken from a book he wrote for his son to teach him music. This are perfect example of prelude improvisations and if you analyse it you will understand the procedure and be able to replicate it in any tonality.

First thing to do is understand figured bass. Nothing to do until it is understood and there is minimal guitar connection with it.

[P4guitar]

Very interesting! I briefly looked for the text and found some reviews of Daube and Niedt books.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2l-C5g&cad=rja


Indeed, the implication is vertical/chordal thinking. Of course this seems quite reasonable to me but that's my (self) training. What say you VKat?

[Takemitsu]

The single best book to improvise in the common practice style in "the art of partimento" by Sanguinetti. You need to know your figured bass before reading it. Then there is Yvonne Desportes "guide d'improvisation" which is a concise version of Marcel Dupré's treatise on improvisation. Dupré's is available in english. It is amazing but if you are not ready do dedicate your life to it, there is no point. There is also several versions of Fenaroli's books around (possibly for free on the internet but I have a print version).

With experimentations, I found a was to organise my head around all this in a concise and quick way. Remember when Joe Pass say that the only thing he want to know is if its major, minor or dominant? Well the way I see it, the only thing I need to have in my head are: am i on the 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7th scale step (bass note)of the tonality im in. The name of the note is (especially on the guitar) secondary. The rest is o I want to solidify the tonality or loosen it. It make it ridiculously easy to modulate in an elegant way and come back.

Also to look as books goes:

Gjerdingen, music in the galant style
Caplin, Musical form (if you want to start making sense formally speaking)
Madeley Richardson, extempore playing


Also, get the Shemellis book with figures from Barenreiter

IMSLP is an ever fresh resource available for free

One day ill publish a book about it (you can hear my wife laughing here)

[P4guitar]

I know myself well enough to know I don't have the discipline for elaborate theory. I'll probably get the book with the simplified analysis above (https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-413-...#RZ2Y4QODRCBFC) and analyze the material in hopes of crudely replicating some of it for my own amusement.

[Takemitsu]

I know myself well enough to know I don't have the discipline for elaborate theory. I'll probably get the book with the simplified analysis above (https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-413-...#RZ2Y4QODRCBFC) and analyze the material in hopes of crudely replicating some of it for my own amusement.

Really, if you want to have fun, quick and you know your figured bass, learn the rule of the octave and there you go.

Learn it, then listen to the aria of the goldberg variations...

[P4guitar]

Thanks, but I don't know figured bass. Looked it up and learned that it's intervals relative to the bass note with some exception handling for inversions. I don't like that - steep learning curve involved. I just want the harmony and I'll do my own inversions. I think like a typical jazz player, that's why I like the book linked above.

[christianm77]

Thanks, but I don't know figured bass. Looked it up and learned that it's intervals relative to the bass note with some exception handling for inversions. I don't like that - steep learning curve involved. I just want the harmony and I'll do my own inversions. I think like a typical jazz player, that's why I like the book linked above.

Figured bass isn't that irrelevant. It's based on diatonic intervals through the scale which is a great thing to get into anyway. You just need to learn the short hand.

I don't think you'll find any useful resources for baroque/classical composition and improvisation that's not based on this system. It's worth learning, and not too difficult IMO.

[christianm77]

The single best book to improvise in the common practice style in "the art of partimento" by Sanguinetti. You need to know your figured bass before reading it. Then there is Yvonne Desportes "guide d'improvisation" which is a concise version of Marcel Dupré's treatise on improvisation. Dupré's is available in english. It is amazing but if you are not ready do dedicate your life to it, there is no point. There is also several versions of Fenaroli's books around (possibly for free on the internet but I have a print version).

With experimentations, I found a was to organise my head around all this in a concise and quick way. Remember when Joe Pass say that the only thing he want to know is if its major, minor or dominant? Well the way I see it, the only thing I need to have in my head are: am i on the 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7th scale step (bass note)of the tonality im in. The name of the note is (especially on the guitar) secondary. The rest is o I want to solidify the tonality or loosen it. It make it ridiculously easy to modulate in an elegant way and come back.

Also to look as books goes:

Gjerdingen, music in the galant style
Caplin, Musical form (if you want to start making sense formally speaking)
Madeley Richardson, extempore playing


Also, get the Shemellis book with figures from Barenreiter

IMSLP is an ever fresh resource available for free

One day ill publish a book about it (you can hear my wife laughing here)

Yes I like relating things to the central tonal centre for harmonic music. Each degree of the scale has it's own character and wants to move a certain way. Harmony is kind of emergent from that. I love the way in the Kodaly system how the hand signals give you those tensions and tendencies straight up. Clever old Hungarians.

I've read Music in the Gallant Style, and really enjoyed playing around with it. Is the Sanguinetti book definitely worth it?

[christianm77]

Baby steps - rule of octaves