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What are the exercises you later realised were a complete waste of valuable practice time?
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12-08-2012 10:27 PM
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any done without singing along while playing them. Play more music and less exercises. Use exercise to get something new under the fingers, but as soon as the fingers have learned the new skill then play music that uses the skill, don't keep playing exercises. To learn music you need to play music.
Last edited by docbop; 12-09-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Generally anything that couldn't be used in an actual musical situation, but a question like this isn't really something that has a blanket answer that fits everyone's progress.
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I think any scale/arp chord prog exercise is valuable if you make it musical. Always use a metronome or backing track; vary the rhythms and tempos; play w/ swing feel/latin, bop, etc. Exersises don't have to be mundane. I work a lot on hammer-ons via scales. As mentioned above, singing the notes is a great way to learn intervals, melody, harmony and to get tunes down cold.
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I can't think of any that were a waste of time.
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Transciribe and practise short lines/not all solos/ created by non guitar players.
You can open your eyes...I think...:-)
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Any exercise is good, as long as you always try to keep in mind what you are trying to learn from it.
If you keep evaluating what you get from an exercise at least you'll figure out when it is useless, and maybe even why and then you'll have learned that.
Jens
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Although not an answer to your question directly, I found that having distractions around the practice area really makes it too easy to waste time. Combined with the tedium of practicing things that I didn't feel a connection with (scales run without musical context, chords grabbed without listening, pieces run through without a metronome or without listening, etc), these are things that lead to that search for distraction like a computer youtube clips or guitar forum perusing.
Self reflection gives personal context and validates your efforts. I think if you spend a lot of time taking the advice of others you don't share goals with, it may prove to be a waste of time at best, a lifelong misdirection at worst. If you don't want to become a metal shredder, it may be that going through shredding dvds is not a good use of your limited resources. It may be that exercises that instill a bebop sensibility in your hand movements can prove to be difficult to unlearn. To that end, trust what you want to sound like and move towards that.
When I learned that listening takes practice, that hearing is an equal part along with hand movement, then even taking a walk without an instrument became a musical experience.
Good question and good replies!
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Transcription in the literal sense: writing it down. Never reviewed those old notes and never got anything out of them.
I haven't written down anything like that in years. I mostly learn shorter phrases at a time now too. 4-8 bars is enough. I twist and turn it in as many ways as possible. More effective learning.
And chord scale drudgery with no musical application.
I was practicing scales up and down but I already knew them. If I could do things differently I'd start making lines from the scales as soon as I had the visual down.
But when I was starting out I had to figure things out on my own. It helped a lot when I got guidance from a teacher.
The most effective things I've done? Learn the bebop language and learn to use chords in context(voice lead them through tunes etc...)
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I probably wasted too much time working on scales etc. without going over them equally in all keys. Howard Roberts would not approve.
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Nice post. +1.
Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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I'd say something I've had to be really conscious of was the difference between a practice activity that is very attractive and somehow gratifying and an activity that I know will get me closer to the musical place I want to be. Something can be somewhat instantly gratifying or perhaps even have the feeling of productivity but really not be getting me anywhere.
Picking technique and anything to do with speed used to kill me in this sense. I'm not sure I regret time I've spent on technique/speed, perse, but I think a lot of the 'practice' time I used to devote to it was more like "hey wait...can I play this phrase at X bpm....no?...wait, let me keep trying...no? hmmm...let me keep trying...DAMMIT I still can't do it....hmmm maybe if I just keep pushing..."
And I'm no dummy, I know if I had stopped to think about it I would have realized that this wasn't a good use of time - I should have stepped back and analyzed what was going wrong and come up with a plan of attack, rather than just hammering the same errors over and over again.
Not to mention that a lot of the time I spent on speed stuff it was about playing a lot of notes and I don't think all that much distinction was made in my mind about what notes I wanted to be playing.
The point isn't that I wasted time working on speed and technique - I think those are fine things to devote time to if they are reflective of the players musical goals (see my thread here: https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/every...technique.html ) My point is that I think any practice activity can just be an individual banging his head against the same wall over and over if there isn't a plan, analysis of what's going right and what's going wrong, some deep thought about what the musical goals really are.
And seeking help from professionals is such a big deal as well. After all my technique work, in an attempt to hang at faster tempos, I met with a teacher (a guy who can make great music on guitar at really any tempo) and told him what was going on, and how I had spent all this time on technique and felt like I hadn't gotten all that far, he said "right, because you need vocabulary."
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Thank you very much for all this great advice and insights.
I live in an environment with no jazz musicians, teachers or live jazz (believe it or not there are countries where jazz is incomprehensible) so I have to work with a combination of real books, exercise books, cds, youtube and when applicable, anything picked up here.
I've learnt on line with Martin Taylor and Jimmy Bruno but not very successfully. I'm not especially talented just doggedly determined. Mainly I play for myself for now since nobody I know has the slightest interest in bebop (be what?).
Like most people my practice time is limited so I want to get the most out of it.
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Incidentally, I recently found a video from 1983 of John Scofield, 'On Improvisation' which has been very helpful. He keeps things straightforward theory-wise and demonstrates really clearly how to turn the essential scales and modes into melodies through the changes. It's also reassuring because with just an accompanying rhythm player, he shows that even with very limited opportunities for playing out a player can still create a really great sound at home.
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I've never found anything really a waste of time. I've corrected something's and thrown other things out - like a way I had of practicing a chromatic scale. I'm always trying to refine my practice routine. From my vantage point now I probably would have spent a lot more time ear transcribing solos. But as it was I spent many years devoted to all things technical: exercises, scales, arpeggios all while playing tunes and gigging and stuff. I was always applying. But I needed what I needed when I needed it. So it's all good. Don't run before you can walk real well.
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Yeah, that ^^^. There are hundreds of ways to learn Jazz guitar, maybe even as many ways as there are teachers. There is no consistency in the pedagogy, certainly when compared to say, classical piano, or even Jazz piano. Originally Posted by trivial post-it
There's every chance you'll go to a teacher, or a book or a website, thinking you'l be learning "Jazz", the way you've heard it and liked it. But if you were thinking Barnie Kessel and your teacher is thinking John Scofield, then there's a disconnect without teacher or pupil ever realizing it. So yeah, I encourage young players (on any instrument) to figure out what style they love most and target teachers and books to that specific end. Life's way too short to get good at kinds of Jazz you don't even like! (and there's bound to be plenty of those!
)....
Last edited by princeplanet; 12-10-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Separately I wanted to also add that excessive scales or technical work may seem wasteful at the middle stages of learning, but one realizes that all roads eventually lead to Rome, and that technique can come before broader knowledge, or the other way around. Either way you'll need both in order to advance.
I remember reading an interviewer genuinely surprised to hear that Stephan Grappelli, even in his last years, would still practice things like scales religiously. When asked why he answered "I'm can always improve my tone!"
So yeah, don't feel bad if you, like a lot of us, have spent a seemingly disproportionate amount of time shedding scales and arps etc. There's a strength in that which can be used to your advantage. The trick is learning how. Even if you limit yourself to say, no more than 6 consecutive notes in any one direction, there are ways to keep it interesting for both player and listener. Listen to the masters, you will hear mini scale runs often, along with countless other devices naturally, but when they hit those runs they are effortless. Practicing scales got them there, for sure, but they also spent time on all the other stuff as well, somewhere along the line....
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Limetones I would chime in that though there may be no true "waste of time" I am pretty sure I could have sped my development in jazz by doing these three things everyday... 1-learn by ear from the cd one 4 to 8 measure phrase by my favorite player of the day,2- learn to sing the "song" of what are called standards for example play the chords and sing the words to All the Things You Are, 3-learn one tune in all twelve keys...then and only then move on to the next tune all twelve keys. Good luck!!!
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+1 Originally Posted by eddy b.
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In the beginning, most exercises are good because you need to develop finger dexterity. If you want to develop speed, then six months in the 'shed doing technical exercises might be a good use of your time. But when a) you're not a beginner and b) you have a limited amount of time to practice, then time spent on exercises is time taken away from work on tunes, vocab, improvisation, and mucking about coming up with your own stuff.
I asked Carol Kaye what warm-up exercises she recommended. She said, 'press each finger (individually) against your thumb for 4-5 seconds then play a few diminished patterns.' That was it.
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I'm not advanced but I'll chime in anyways.
Noodling can be an inefficient use of time.
But if you noodle over chord progressions in time, that noodling can become a much more effective use of your time.
I've been practicing more and more sight reading. It can help ones fret-board knowledge, help with ear training, help with focus and of course help with sight reading.
Some things that I think are good to do for non-advanced players:
Work through method books to keep yourself moving on to fresh material.
Record yourself often to evaluate your progress.
Play lots of, no tons of tunes.
Write tunes.
Play/practice with others.
Gig.Last edited by fep; 12-10-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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Practicing/Playing with the TV on = Biggest waste of time
Fun? Oh yes!
Making progress on the instrument? I don't think so.
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Howard Roberts thought that it was a good idea, esp for mechanical things one need not think about, just play over and over. Originally Posted by Dana
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Rehearsing with different bands, singers etc... Actually rehearsing in general... that time should be put into sight reading and understanding what the music is... the trial and error method of beat it into yourself... wastes time. But that's just my opinion... Reg
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Where did he say it? Was it in a book or an interview? Without actually seeing it direct from the source it's difficult to know what the context was. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
If I were to make a guess I would assume that he meant that after a student took the initial time to learn a piece, phrase, technique, etc, (actual practice) then he/she could practice it over and over in front of the TV. But that's only after they take the time to focus and learn it first. As you said, "mechanical things one need not think about."
I don't think many guitar students understand the difference between the two.
As I said in my post, I don't have a problem with noodling in front of the TV. It's fun, and yes, you can increase your strength and endurance on the instrument. But it's not real learning. If it was, wouldn't they just have the TV on constantly in public schools and colleges?
I've taught many, many guitar lessons over the years. From my experience when a student tells me he's practicing but I see he's not making any progress I ask, "Was the TV on?", and the answer is yes.
If you can point me to that Howard Roberts quote I'd appreciate it.Last edited by Dana; 12-10-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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