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You're doing great, man.
Originally Posted by euterpe
Keep working those chord tones. Trying to be rhythmic, melodic and creative with distilled materials is tough but a joy when it starts to come off.
Enjoy the discipline of that.
Keep a narrative. Don't abandon an idea for some lick that you just pop in there that might not have a place in your narrative structure.
This is more of a general point, not a specific one.
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10-20-2012 05:27 AM
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thanks reg and mike
as in don't avoid playing something just cause it doesn't fit in with the structure of what you should be playing?Keep a narrative. Don't abandon an idea for some lick that you just pop in there that might not have a place in your narrative structure.
I've heard bergonzi say multiple times that melody trumps harmony, metheny even says something along these lines, that you can get away with anything if you believe in it and it's done in a rhythmically convincing manner. Metheny says that most people don't venture into chromatic tones cause they can't hear how they're related to the chord or shoud resolve.
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Well there are a few stages. Originally Posted by euterpe
Getting the Chord tones down, which you seem to be enjoying.
Playing those Chord tones freely (not just in order 1 3 5 7 and descending)
but being able to play them in real time in the order of your choice....
this takes time, as I'm sure you're already aware, but it's worth it.
Add rhythm only when you feel in control of the above.
Add rhythm carefully not too randomly.
You're looking at this stage to find out how well you know this information,
how in command you are.
It's a point so often overlooked.
Then, try composing melody, improvised of course, in real time with only this material.
In other words, allow yourself to hear what is in your musical mind/ear.
This is an interesting exercise for so many reasons.
But see what reasons you get to, without my prompting you.
You'll come up with your own reasons. Judging from your posts, I'm betting
you're reasons will be as good as anyone's.
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Thanks again mike, I checked out your page as well it's great. You're ripping it up on that impressions video! So glad to get some advice from such great players
Last edited by euterpe; 10-20-2012 at 06:34 PM. Reason: spelling
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Hey euterpe...
Yea Mikes talented in way too many ways.
So Mike and I are talking about basically the same thing... I'm just a little more theory orientated...(when talking about playing) for example when we talk about use of chord tones... Mike is telling you to use freely... express what your hearing...this happens when you have internalize your fretboard... you can hear the notes. And the real time thing is the test... not memorized, improvised.... What I'm talking about is what this ability... this improvised use of chord tones is in relationship to.
Yes you have the basic progression... but when you hear and play your lines, your use of chord tones, their implying a harmonic system. Your implying an analysis of what your improvising over.
If you could voice every note of an improvised phrase... Take two bars of your solo and build chords under that melodic line... That series of chords would imply your analysis. And that analysis, how you choose to hear your use of chord tones, reflects a harmonic concept... or as it generally is with jazz, a few harmonic systems.
I understand most melodic players always say "melody trumps harmony", but that doesn't mean harmony is not there. It simply means... the melody or melodic use can be the controlling factor implying which harmonic concepts are in play. The melody is generally in relationship to something, the harmony doesn't go away.
Great players...such as Mike have already internalized their harmonic concepts... when they improvise, they hear melodic lines and have already internalized what their in relationship to... and have the ability to react to other players influencing that relationship(s).
But there are different methods of going through this learning process, I understand the harmony/theory.... the organizing systems, as well as the just play approach... that's what I do, I played a triple yesterday,(3 gigs) and have a double today. I generally just play, interact and react.
But I've been watching over the years where teaching methods end up... most of the players don't get there. So there's a break down somewhere... I obviously have opinions why.
Sorry to drift... So getting back to practice routines and outlining harmony, (with reflect of harmonic concepts),
I used to take a melodic phrase, say two bars.
I would change the phrase to reflect different series of chords. Have different chord patterns and make the line reflect or imply the chords. Then I would take different harmonic concepts and see how the different Harmonic concepts could influence the chords and my melodic line.
In the end you will end up with a collection of almost plug and play parts. Which will become internalized and your ears will have more to work with or react to.
I should probably make a video of exercise...
Another detail... you need to get your chops together. Jazz is not played in slow motion, even ballads. Generally difficulties come from bad technique, usually fingering systems. I'm not talking to euterpe ... this is general to most on this forum. It takes about six months to get a fingering system down... maybe a year depending on your time schedule.
Reg
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Thanks for this Reg, it's a clear explanation of something you've been hinting at for a while. I just tried the exercise with a few phrases and it shed some light on the harmonic concepts I imply with my lines. Originally Posted by Reg
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Thanks Jake.
I'm really just a jazz players... obviously need to work on my teaching material...it's been years.
Would dig hearing what you come up with...
Reg
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Reg,
Would this work as a possible study model for what you are getting at?
Recording a few choruses of improvisation on a tune, transcribing the result and then
writing a 4 or 5 part harmonization of every note, kind of like Super Sax did with Charlie Parker,
but with the point being understanding possible harmonic implications of what was played.
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Also, Reg, it seems that the next step in your approach is to then organize the harmonic implications into something sensible, avoiding doing them at 'random' because the result will be too 'muddy,' assuming we all accept the subjectivity of those terms.
So what's the difference between random harmonic implications and organized ones? Is it simply an issue of call and response or an organized repetition of the harmonic source material?
Is it the relationship with common jazz practices? Meaning, you pull your notes from harmonic sources and sequences that are common to classic 'jazz' music...but what about trying to invent or explore newer harmonic source material?
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Reg- I would very much appreciate a video about that exercise!
While not trying to be insulting, I find your posts quite difficult to understand. Possibly because I'm nowhere near advanced when it comes to my music. I find your videos, where you have concrete examples, to be much easier to make sense of.
Cheers.
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Thanks a lot Reg that was some great advice, I'd love to see a video of an exercise of what you would to do practice thisIf you could voice every note of an improvised phrase... Take two bars of your solo and build chords under that melodic line... That series of chords would imply your analysis. And that analysis, how you choose to hear your use of chord tones, reflects a harmonic concept... or as it generally is with jazz, a few harmonic systems.
I understand most melodic players always say "melody trumps harmony", but that doesn't mean harmony is not there. It simply means... the melody or melodic use can be the controlling factor implying which harmonic concepts are in play. The melody is generally in relationship to something, the harmony doesn't go away.
With the melody trumps harmony bit, the melody is of course in relation to some harmony! I just meant that you can ( or so i've been told) create deviations in the harmony that don't cause a complete train wreck in the song.
so Reg, I tried to make an excercise to practice this. I just tried improvising on the major scale and tried to adding different chords under the melody notes. Extended and lydian dominat/alt chords work well with this. I tried repeating certain phrases so I could change the harmonies, I think it sounded nice
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Hey bako... exactly. The more you voice out the more you'll become aware of what your hearing. What generally happens... you find many of the notes you played...could be different to reflect what your hearing... simple mistakes.
Granted... playing wrong notes is part of improve, and there are many ways to use non tonal notes which enhance improve. But it's generally a good thing to be aware of what your hearing as reference for relationships.
What will happen, and be reflected in your playing, your able to hear different... styles of harmonic concepts. Blues, latin, old swing, fusion, rock, bebop etc...
Jake... for me personally the difference between random and organized, is simple being aware of characteristics of different styles, (harmonic references) which can be used for general references while we play. When we play it's more of general concept... hopefully already has become internalized. When we compose, arrange or write tunes... much more detailed and very easy to hear and see differences. Very physical use.
Creating new concepts... sure, why not. Create set of relationships or guidelines and try and compose something. My playing is a reflection of my attempt at creating my harmonic references and relationships using basic jazz concepts.
Shadow... don't worry about insults yada yada. I'm not selling anything... Yes I'll make a video of exercise...
euterpe...Melody can and does effect harmony... many methods for harmony to react or not react.
Great exercise, might work better with a somewhat set melody. Keep the basic shape of the melody rhythmically the same and try and imply different harmonies by small changes to the melody notes. The next step would be organizing the harmonic changes... you'll see patterns.
Reg
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Hey Reg, long time, man. Hope all is well, amigo.
My feeling here is focus.
I think euterpe is doing great to focus on the architecture for a while.
It comes across in the clips.
My feeling is that folks move on too quickly because of possibilities.
Harmonic possibilities.
They are beautiful but maybe a little too alluring when we just ain't ready and they can veer us off a path that could have enabled our song to express itself with a little more ease had we continued on the journey for a while longer.
As you know, there are so many ways we can harmonize this stuff, but we have to be ready.
The train has to have a chance to get to the city we were aiming for.
Too many jump trains mid journey.
Saying that, I still think many found your take on this to be helpful for them in their own right, and I'm aware too that the OP might gain inspiration from it also.
Did I just negate my post?@? lol........ The net is a funny puppy..... we have to explain our explanations!!!!
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thanks a lot Mike and Reg I really appreciate it, the help has been amazing.
going back and mastering basic triads/triads with an added note is proving to be extremely useful.
I think one of the big flaws in my practicing has been practicing this stuff out of time.
I was watching a Bergonzi master class last night and he mentioned something cool about rhythm. He said something along the lines of, "When students learn to improvise they think of the chord tones that they want to hit but then must make up a rhythmic idea on the spot. Try working the other way around, think of rhythm's and put notes under them."
After trying it a bit yesterday and today I can already tell that adding this while of adding this idea will help a lot. I figure this way my lines are much more lyrical and 'm having way more fun while i'm practicing cause I'm making melodies instead of just trying to play tones to just outline the chords (which is again my main goal right now)
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Euterpe, I think your misunderstanding the Metheny quote. He is talking about how rhythm trumps all else, whereas the other guy you quoted was talking about melody being more important than harmony. I.e. if you have strong rhythmic ideas you can make any notes sound good. Metheny isn't just a master of outlining the harmony but also a master of using outside tones / and atonality in his solos, and he holds it all together with his impeccable timing.
Anyways, your asking about outlining the harmony, so we leave the atonal stuff for later ok? ;o)
Are you able to play your basic arpeggios in all positions on the neck? I listened to your recording and it sounded very much stuck in one position. Not that position playing is bad, but I think you need to work on moving around on the neck more. I would also recommend, that if you don't already know your basic arpeggios (maj7, min7, dom7) up the entire neck, do that. And then try these two things:
1. Be able to create a solo over just one chord, using only chord tones. So if you have a way to make a backing track like Biab or self recording, do that, but make the backing track with only one single chord. Say a Cmaj 7. Practice soloing over that Cmaj7 using nothing but chord tones. Force yourself to play in all positions on the neck. Even though your note selection is severely limited, still try to make interesting phrases and melodies. Use all types of rhythmic subdivisions and do both slow and fast runs. When you can solo fluidly over one chord, up the entire neck, using only chord tones, and making interesting phrases, at any speed....well you have really learned something important. Do this with the other chord types, and do each one with several different roots. Arpeggios should be learned in approximately 5 boxes / positions, just like scales. And you need to be fluid with them in order to do jazz improv at a high level.
2. Now once you've gone to the woodshed on these basic arpeggios, try soloing over a standard chord progression, preferably a simple one. Now limit yourself to only chord tones. If you did no. 1 above, you should now have no problem with this (it may take months to be fluid with each arpeggio). Also remember to avoiding staying in one position the entire time. Move around.
Now once you can solo over an entire tune using only chord tones, then you will be able to use scale tones (or chromatic tones) properly, as simply passing tones on your way to a chord tone.
Keep in mind these are just basic steps, not the end goal. Once you master the basic arpeggios and have the ability to play fluidly up the entire neck over any basic chord, then you start getting fancier and adding in scale tones, chromatic tones, substitution, etc...
Listening to your recording, I don't get the feeling you can do both no. 1 & 2 above. And that is what is holding you back, imo. Or can you?
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Thanks for you input jazzedelic,
I know it's just an audio file, but I'm really suprised you said that cause in those clips I'm literally playing all over neck! I went over all the changes in the tune and made sure those were down over the whole neck for sure.
I completely agree with the arpeggio's, I thought I had it down for the longest time but thats what's holding me back. A few of the uber flatted triads throw me off.
Sorry for the mix up, the metheny quote was totally rhythm trumps. Bergonzi said melody trumps harmony in terms of reharming a tune.
As such I basically just wanted to see what you guys would recommend for creating a practice routine to outline changes.
I'd much rather work on this for a while and build on a strong foundation. There's so much stuff to learn and it's so tempting to learn of more, and more stuff.
I started learning about jazz harmony cause I wanted to get into composing. While composing though the music isn't live so you have all the time in the world to reason through things and apply things to your music that you haven't actually internalized on an instrument.
But now I want to sit in on some jams and be ready to go in any key so I have a little homework to get that to be second nature.
Thanks again for the advice everyone I really appreciate it!
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This. Originally Posted by euterpe
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Hey Mike...
Doing well, thanks
Your points are as always... real. I like the use of architecture... could cover all the structural BS.
The moving on to something new... before understanding because of those possibilities... oh yea.
I think there are two types of learning and practicing... when your practicing what you know... somewhat like learning how to perform what you know.
And then the becoming aware of the concepts and applications of playing Jazz you're not aware of. How players choose... or are told how to develop the knowledge, technical and performance skills. The real woodshed, (whatever that is), practicing.
Mike... I know you already understand... but for others, when we play... sure rhythm always somewhat trumps... It will get one through the moment... but really it all counts, once you have your rhythm thing together... you'll hear the notes, then you'll hear the relationships....and then finally you can make music.
So to explain my explanation... there 's two types of learning jazz.
One to be able to perform what we know, hear and understand... performing, gigs, practicing performance.
And one to become aware of what we don't know, hear and understand. The work etc..
Generally.. most of my comments on this forum are to help players become aware of what they don't know, hear or understand.
enterpe... standard order of learning could, or should be... rhythm, notes, relationships.
The rhythm can work like Form or space for your learning of notes and the relationships of those notes. (rhythm also has relationships).
Just like notes and relationships between notes, (melodically and harmonically), have a reference or starting point... rhythm can be organized also.
Sorry for BS... I'll make a video today... of what??? an example of a rhythmic melodic phrase... then develop or have the line reflect simple harmonic changes, chord changes. Show and explain the changes.
Then show the next level... how different harmonic concepts effect the choice of note changes within the phrase... the difference between different harmonic concepts reflected by what notes I change. Might work.
Reg
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Fire away, bro!! Originally Posted by Reg
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