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Hey j-mo,
I just posted on your thread about Green Dolphin. There's a thin line between short term gain and end result.
We are guitar players... we don't just play single not lines. We need to be aware of the theory... that awareness will reflect the other note we play. We don't just play and hear horizontal... But I'm simply one of many jazz guitar players, but I do understand the theory and I can play...
Getting back to enclosures... what or how have the enclosures started to work...
Thanks Reg
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10-04-2012 12:00 PM
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I agree, of course we need the theory. I have a music degree and know my theory - although my Jazz theory is catching up. I was just giving reference on Conti's philosophy. I suspect some players would be turned off by his "play now, understand the theory later" approach. I myself was skeptical but I'm really digging it. A huge part of getting this stuff down is finding what works for you (then putting the time in) as there are so many ways to analyze the same thing. I have tons of books that did not work for me. As I said, his DVD turned on a light bulb. As far as how or why? I simply found what works for me at this point in time. I found etudes/lines that sounds great and resonate with me. Because of that I'm incorporating them easier.
Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey j-m0, Originally Posted by j-mo
Thanks for response. Please don't take my comments personal, there not meant to be. I don't know you or your playing as well as you me, but there is this discussion going on about approach notes and enclosures.
We're on a jazz guitar sight discussing jazz usage of a melodic embellishment or ornamentation with harmonic implications.
There both part of the standard collection of melodic improvisational technical skills used to solo.
Just as there are harmonic approaches... or simply playing the changes with the very physical resulting harmonic results... You generally solo from the melody or changes. The melody does have harmonic implications. What ever system or method one uses to make his or hers choices of which notes to play... their not random. Just as one doesn't pick or hear any note collection... in any form, be it, scale, arpeggio, sequential... approach or enclosure etc... there are harmonic guidelines of what notes generally work.
This is not complicated, there are general jazz practices, and even if you choose to create your own practice, mechanically... melodically ... harmonically... there are still references, starting points for your relationships. Even if one choose not to be aware.
There are a million analogies... why do guitar players always look for any method but standard practice to play anything.
PrincePlanet... getting back to your point... My advice is always understand the concept and practice the applications. Approach notes and Enclosures are standard embellishment melodic skills which have harmonic implication.
There is always a relationship between target note(s) and the note(s) used in what ever embellishment, ornamentation etc... you use to approach or enclose.
There are also always technical skill... the performance part.
Why don't we post examples of actual usage. I'll gladly do so... which or what type of example would help.
Again I apologize if I offend anyone... All I'm trying to do is help... I have very limited amounts of time, as we all do, but have years of playing experience.
Reg
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Reg, happy to hear examples of say, your 6 fave enclosures and how you use them. If you have time...
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Hey princeplanet... sure I post something, maybe rather than just what I use, I'll show a few and how they change with different harmonic influences. Might make the vid longer than 30 sec. ... I'll try and make concept and applications thing...\Reg Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Chromatic approach notes above and below Cma6
Db B --- C
F D# --- E
Ab Gb --- G
Bb Ab --- A
What chord(s) might these notes be implying?
Collectively there is a constant structure DbMa6 above and BMa6 below.
What other chord possibilities are there for each pair of approach notes?
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The main thing to remember is what you're using for approach notes isn't that important its all the the target note. Tension & Release.
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Obvously Bako feels the same way as you (and I ) about this, so perhaps he's asking Reg this question because of what was brought up regarding possible harmonic implications due to approach note or enclosure usage. Anyway, I'm sure Reg will elucidate...
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I feel that although it is possible to get decent results as Reg puts it through mechanical means of implementing enclosure formulas, it is more nuanced stance to be aware of the harmonies that these notes might represent. Hearing them as chord(s) expands the palette of related notes to include chord tones/extensions/related scales.
In some ways it is perhaps wiser to study approach chords first (not that I did this myself) because they open doors to all manner of approach notes.
I put the example up there for anyone/everyone here.
Play the notes slowly, if you can hear or conceptualize them as part of a chord or chords, then share the result.
If not, then share that too. I thought we might all learn something from the experience.
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Surely context is everything? Including tempo and placement, accenting etc. Eg, play those examples quickly, where against C6 the chord tones fall on the beat. To me, the passing notes imply nothing more than an optional passing chord of the same quality (Db6 or B6). Originally Posted by bako
I'm just unsure about what else there is to consider...
However, if the "passing" or auxiliary notes (as we used to call them at music school) were the other 4 notes of the C maj bebop scale (d f Ab b), then of course that implies the Barry Harris passing chord scales where you have C6 - Ddim - C6 - Ddim etc moving up an inversion at a time. Am I way off base here?...Last edited by princeplanet; 10-08-2012 at 04:10 AM.
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C6 - Bdim - C6
B D --- C chromatic below/scale above
D F --- E scale below/chromatic above
F Ab --- G scale below/chromatic above
Ab B --- A chromatic below/ scale
Each passing chord presents a collection of notes that can be drawn upon in relation to the target chord/notes.
C E G A possible parent scale:
C D E F G A B
Constant structure scale above and below
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
B C# D# E F# G# A#
Enclosures from Db major to C major
Db Eb --- D
F Eb --- E
Gb F --- F (common tone)
Ab Gb --- G
Bb Ab --- A
C Bb --- B
Db C --- C (common tone)
Enclosures from B major to C major
C# B --- C
D# C# --- D
E D# --- E (common tone)
F# E --- F
G# F# --- G
A# G# --- A
B A# --- B (common tone)
chords/scales with a V7/bII7 to IMa6 or any other approach chords/scales that progress well to IMa6 are possible source material.
Reg says every note he plays has harmonic implications. I believe him. It is a relatively simple statement to say but a challenging
level of awareness to execute. Reg has spent many hours in the music lab and has played many gigs for a long time.
For me, it is still a work in progress. I think that some of my practicing of chord pairs/scale pairs has been helpful.
Perhaps Reg can share some ideas that helped him progress in this area.
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I may be off in my reading of Bako's note but I think Reg had addressed this on the first page to my question on semitone above and below enclosures. I'm interested to see the video of his use of the different enclosures and what they imply. I kind of get the concept of going back and forth between two chordal patterns ( harmonic concepts ) in developing the enclosures but I find it tricky to know how much of each to use to ensure the enclosure is not the target and vice versa but yet still spell out the concepts adequately.
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On a simple level with something concrete to practice--Essentially you can approach or enclose chromatically or diatonically...it's not that difficult of a concept.
A great exercise is to write very simple lines out that fit the changes...quarter notes or half notes...these are the "key" notes--the targets in the bar, they should suit the chord strongly...
Then practice getting to them...from above, below, chromatically, or approaching from scale tones above or below...
Ideally, you'll hear the approach notes as leading into the more important "target tone."
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Yea I'll be interested to see how the video comes out also... Even though there are many source for controlling notes used to enclose targets... what happens for me personally... I use the applications I like and that reflect the context, what I'm playing.
But as Jeff and bako we're making reference to,
Chromatic or Diatonic... lets break them down.
Chromatic... pretty simple right, 1/2 steps....So we use C as target. If you think melodically... not many choices... Db and B or B and Db.
Now if you apply a harmonic concept... still thinking chromatically, but now those notes reflect chord(s)... we're creating another level of usage.
Db and B can be from... one chord, Db7. Or any chordal structure which reflects the Db and B. I could make that Db7 a dominant application.
If I only use the one enclosure, the Db and B, not really much of a relationship developed... but when I develop... solo, that enclosure could develop into many relationships... where and what influences my solo... I can create a dom. secondary level of harmony,(chords), that could reflect what I'm playing... where I'm pulling from or hearing.
Getting back to starting chromatic enclosure... Db and B. Another chromatic concept could be Constant Structure. If the target chord is Cmaj7, the enclosure could be Dbmaj7 and Bmaj7. Which also create a set of relationships which can be developed or use to influence your solo.
Hopefully your beginning to see and understand the concept. It's somewhat like "Plug and Play".... Generally jazz players use Turns more that enclosures... which are easier to reflect harmonic choices, the notes you use in your turn.
This can be BS or can be one of many methods to help make your playing... Sound better, very subjective... but there are many reasons why we like some solos or playing in general ... There is always a balance which can be very difficult to develop when playing, soloing. Your creating in the moment...
If you didn't think or hear this concept before... you might begin to hear new relationship when listening or even better... playing.
I'll try and get to making the video today...
Reg
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(In response to MR B)
But what I think I'm hearing in many of the players I admire are rapid fire patterns which blast through a whole range of these enclosures in a way that has to be practiced. For example, take the descending 12 note chromatic scale, say from G against G7. Now reverse the order of the C# and D, so that the D is approached, but then proceeds immediately to C and on to G to complete one octave, then continue down til you run out of notes in that position. Now all the notes falling on down beats are diatonic to G7, except the D#, but that is ok as it sets up the enclosure to D, thus still sounding strongly within G mixo (but with a slight emphasis on #5). It's a cool little device, not to be overused obviously, but if I want to execute such a run anywhere on the neck, the only way for me to do it in a blink is to practice this "device" in all 5 positions (then in all keys).
Fine, now, how about the same idea, but encircling another note as well. Let's target the B too. First problem you find is that you can't simply go c a# b a g# ... etc like you could with the D, because you break the scheme and start landing too many dissonant down beats like the g#. So, one way around this is to play the lower approach note twice, eg:
g f# f e d# c# d c# c a# b a# g# g etc
Cool, now alter this so you do the same thing as above but encircle the e instead of the d, and you have a device that works against the tonic chord or subs (Cmaj7, Em7, even Am9 or Fmaj#11). Practice in all 5 positions til you can swap between the Dom and Tonic version in any position in any key. Then move on to find dozens of other combinations of enclosures with bebop, pentatonic scales, arps, symmetrical scales etc. Then start to combine them. Heres a combo I quite like against G Dom (or alt):
g# f# g f# f e d# c# d c a a# b d f g# g f# f e d c b a etc where you combine 3 different kinds of enclosures along with a dim arp which ascends to reset to the top root before descending down a simple bebop scale . That one took me 2 weeks to get under my fingers to the point I can now do it with my eyes closed in all positions in all keys.
And that's my problem, I can think of so many of these bloody things which I love the sound of, but they just take so darn long to ingrain. So I wonder how the hell Clifford Brown could have so many devices such as these under his fingers at such an early age? And am I doing all this to the detriment of learning other (arguably more important) aspect of Jazz improv, like inventing and then varying, melodies? FWIW, I really like fast Hard Bop (Griffin, Rollins, Blakey, McLean etc) and am looking for devices so I can rely less on arps and blues scale based ideas, and more on chromatic concepts and degrees of "outness". Any thoughts are appreciated.Last edited by princeplanet; 10-08-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Stuff does take a long time to ingrain....that's just part of it...
look at the songs these guys were learning coming up...any Charlie Parker tune uses these ideas riht there in the melody (scrapple's a great example...)
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Hey Princeplanet...
So in your first example... clearly you hear the D becoming a target or secondary target. To my ears reflect the use of the V chord or Dom concept.
I didn't really get into it but rarely are single concepts used... there all going on all the time, and there are many methods to view or hear what your playing. In your example using a melodic or mechanical method of application of harmonic concept.
Why do you need to alter the approach when transposing... changing targets... generally harmonic considerations.... the relationships between what your playing and where your playing it.
When you play mechanical... you almost need to memorize, which reflects why takes so much time.
The discussion of technique is very relevant... I'm not trying to pile on, but that's why I always rant about what and how to start technical studies... you need starting references that eventually make your fret board skills seemless. Most guitarist hit walls... lousy technique.
I don't know you or your playing technique... but generally technique is as much a problem as well as understandings.
I like your last usage... maybe a little muddy harmonically, but nice combination of applications.
As far as the playing inside, outside or through the changes... generally the "Form of", the physical space of when your playing is as important as the "Form In", what you using or actually playing in those spaces.
Music has harmonic rhythm... strong or week beats and different accents patterns influence those strong and week beats. There's an organization of the simple down and up beat with all subdivisions... and then there's the Harmonic Rhythm and the accent pattern or groove implied or created by. How and where you play, inside, outside or through those spaces is very useful, even more so when going outside.
Reg
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PP I don't have that much personal experience shedding specific chromatic approach concepts or enclosures, at least not lately. A long time ago I was given a very lengthy and thorough assignments involving 12 enclosures, all chord types, all five fret ranges, but that was before I had even done much transcription. I often wonder what the benefits were of the work I did (I never finished the whole thing.)
When I then got into transcription and looked at the different ways different players used chromaticism I found that each player favored certain licks and approaches, especially Charlie Parker. He really didn't have a vocabulary of 10,000 enclosures, there were maybe a dozen or less that came up again and again, as you probably know because I think you mentioned before that you've learned some of those solos.
I don't know what the answer is really, whatever it is, it probably takes a lot of work, and probably not the same work every day. The folks who are able to actually play fast bebop on a guitar usually have a method or methods that got them there. From my limited view, there seem to be very few folks that can actually cleanly play fast bebop lines on the guitar - consistent 8ths and triplets, clearly articulating chord changes in the style of the players you mention.
I've heard several great/pro players (Wayne Krantz and Tim Miller) say that the faster the tempo, the more pre-composed or pre-rehearsed material you're going to have to play. Basically, the less improvisation. Obviously a lot of the stuff Bird played was already worked out, as the same licks appear over and over again, just put together in different ways. I don't know if I'd agree 'the faster the tempo' but maybe a combo of the speed and density of the line. Who is playing all 8ths at 300 that isn't playing 4-8 note fragments (or longer) that they haven't played before?
Just my opinion, and again if it's useless then it's useless and nobody gets hurt, but I think it's all about internalizing the vocabulary, whether the line has enclosures or not. Singing the lines help, playing them in as many different ways as possible but of course finding the most efficient fingerings is extremely important (fingerings that allow you to execute the line at the desired tempo.)
The most helpful advice I've been given on subjects like these have usually been in private lessons with people who were actually capable of doing what I was trying to do. Their approaches often surprised me, sometimes by being simpler than I thought.
On AAJ, JazzOud had an interesting point/approach...not about enclosures specifically, but strong bebop-style 8th note lines, and I think it could apply to the stuff you're working on. For what it's worth: Any Magical Tips For Playing Uptempo Bebop? - Jazz Bulletin Board
I can't get the link to work right now, but luckily I saved the text. Credit to JazzOud at AAJ of course...:
while generalization techniques are certainly valid (thinking scale/key center/simplification), it's also a necessary part of bebop to able to clearly suggest the specific chord changes.
Doing this at a brisk tempo when the chord changes every two beats is challenging, and won't happen unless you specifically work on it (or are a genius, I guess).
In simplest terms, a change every two beats means that an 8th note line has four 8ths per chord. As a starting point, you need to be able to target a strong chord tone on the first of those four 8ths. The other three have to somehow get you to the next one.
It's helpful at first to work some options out slowly, even writing out lines. Eventually you will have a large repertoire of 4 note cells that can be combined in infinite ways to create variations.
Focusing on targeting 3rds, 5ths and roots (more or less in that order). Add in 7ths once you're comfortable with 1 3 and 5.
If you think of a cell as starting on a target note and ending on the target note of the next cell, the options are:
start/end
3 - - - 3
3 - - - 5
3 - - - 1
5 - - - 3
1 - - - 3
5 - - - 1
1 - - - 5
5 - - - 5
1 - - - 1
The ones involving a 3rd are the most effective. Anything that starts and ends on the same degree will parallel the root motion and consequently sound more predictable and "patterned". Of course 7th and higher chord degrees can also be targeted, but you have to start at the beginning (and higher chord degrees do not define the harmony as well, which is fine but not the purpose of this technique). Check out transcriptions for ideas of some good cells. Fats Navarro, Parker, Coltrane, and Bud Powell have a lot of good ones. So does Bach.
Since this kind of harmonic rhythm is usually either circle of fifths or descending half steps, spending time figuring out how to navigate those progressions convincingly using a minimum of notes has a big payoff.
Particularly common progressions that benefit from this kind of practice:
Rhythm changes/variations
"Don Byas" dominant backcycle for Rhythm Changes (F#7 etc.)
Confirmation/Blues for Alice
Joy Spring
Afternoon in Paris
Coltrane I-I ("But Not For Me") cycle (Eb F#7 Bb D7 G Bb7 Eb)
Coltrane ii - I ("Countdown") cycle (Fm7 F#7 B D7 G Bb7 Eb)
I Hear A Rhapsody cycle
turnaround cycle variations (C∆ Am7 Dm7 G7, C∆ Eb7 Ab7 Db7, C∆ Eb∆ Ab∆ Db∆, Em7 A7 Dm7 C7, Dm7 G7 Bb7 A7, Dm G7 Eø7 A7, etc.)
One caution: when targeting 7ths, listen carefully to what your line is suggesting. Since the 7th is often the 3rd of the previous chord, a succession of 7ths can sound like you're in the wrong place if the rest of your line is not strong.
And in case someone wants to criticize this as being insufficient, incomplete, or not "really" improvising: of course it isn't. What it is is the bare minimum skill necessary to get to the point where you have the freedom to improvise in a bebop context.
You can ultimately anticipate or delay resolution, use rhythmic variations (which may have fewer or more notes), and mix all these techniques with other approaches like key generalization, motivic structures, etc.
Well, that's part of it. Again, this is all specific to playing over these fast-harmonic-rhythm type progressions. Some people sound really great over other kinds of progressions but don't deal with this specific situation (which is a big part of Bebop).Great, thank you for that.
I was also curious what you meant about "faking them." I'm in a position where my exposure to jazz is mostly through records and seeing pretty high caliber performers in person, but don't wind up hearing the playing of a lot of students or underdeveloped players aside from myself.
So to talk about the pitfalls, where a less developed player might miss the mark, are you saying that it's common to hear players simply not sounding like the have control over which tones they land on or...something else?
"Faking it" might be a bit of hyperbole, but essentially I meant that while some people can play convincing lines using techniques like generalization, in a way it is avoiding playing the changes, which (IMO) is a necessary technique in bebop. It's not just undeveloped players, even some professional jazz musicians and teachers who generally sound good (even great) can be undeveloped in this area and their bebop playing suffers (again, IMO).
What particularly appeals to me about the approach I outlined above is that a 4-note cell is too small an entity to really register as a "lick", they're more like "words" that you can put together to create a wide variety of different "sentences", and so there really is a strong improvisatory element even if all the cells are things you have practiced before.
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Nice one Jake! That's quite on point, especially regarding the next step of putting exercises to work in Bop improv. I like the way that the greats all seemed to figure out their own unique code. If Rollins and McLean ever played a similar motif (circa early 60's) , it was certainly within totally different frameworks. Their respective methodologies are just so different, but there's no getting around learning chromatic approaches and enclosures around target notes, it's part of what Bop was/is about.
What's up with AAJ lately, I can't seem to get on either....
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Most players can master Matts or Daves enclosure ideas very quickly if they simply understand what they are as compared to mechanically memorizing fingerings or patterns...
What are bebop lines... use of standard scales or chord tones and adding Dominant/Blue notes and developing rhythmically accented lines... The enclosures and usages are all from Dominant/Blue note applications.
There not a mechanical approach... if you play them from that method( mechanical) of learning, that's what you will sound like, not good or bad, but very different than bebop.
When you go through Dave's or Matt's examples... sure they show you the note collection and how to approach different chord tones, mechanically... but each example has many ways to play... the trick is to imply the harmonic concept... whether that's Dominant or Bluenote.
If you have your fretboard skills together and understand the concept... you can play the examples with out even seeing them.
And many more to actually fit the context your playing in.
Princeplanet... your idea of inventing your own is much hipper than simply memorizing.
But maybe the journey is really all that counts...
Reg
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AAj working now, went to link, someone said that Martino said he only ever used 7 ideas! Any idea what they were? Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Hah, Martino has actually said himself in many interviews that he only has seven ideas. I've transcribed only a few Martino solos, I haven't listened to him in a while, but you definitely hear a lot of the same ideas and contours coming up again and again. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Oh, looking at the thread, that was me who said that, I'm Acci. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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hehe, I'm always forgetting things I write on these things as well.
I sometimes google a subject like "Time doesn't exist" and I'll read something that I fully agree with, only to realize that I'm reading a post of my own in some forum or other.... just when you begin to get excited that at least one other person out there thinks the same way you do! doh!........
But this "I always use the same ideas" confession, Bird of course said a similar thing, right? "I can play all I know in 8 bars". Most people including myself don't believe it literally of course, but who knows? Maybe there was a reductive way he saw things. Just imagine if an old notebook was ever found revealing the "secret 8 bars" that allow you to play like Parker! Instant best seller!
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Well the way I look at it is...
If you play middle C in solo...you've played middle C before. Ok, so everybody repeats himself if you break it down to one note.
How about C E G, that's a major arpeggio, probably played that before. Everybody repeats himself if you break it down to 3 notes. We all repeat 3 note sequences we've played before.
There are twelve other notes you could play after those two, do you think you have previously played each of those 12 possibilities? (C E G C, C E G C#, C E G D, C E G D#, etc.) Sure you have...
Nobody plays the same chorus again, but people of course repeat 3 note fragments...4 notes...5 notes...then it becomes player specific, but when you break it down to a minimum of notes it becomes close to impossible to not repeat oneself.
I think different players, whether they are conscious of this or not, are at a different point on this continuum. Some might have multiple measures they pull out again and again, and some do not, but of course by the nature of the restrictions of playing jazz guitar they are surely going to repeat short sequences of notes, it's just impossible not to.
I think Bird had half measure and full measure ideas, and of course would double time those same ideas. If he said 8 bars, that could mean maybe 16 half-measure ideas. If you vary the rhythm, placement, accents, keys, add rests, make some notes longer or shorter, etc, you get quite a lot of ideas. If you include the concept of changing for different tonalities (major, minor, dominant, etc)...
Actually, that last paragraph is exactly the premise of Bert Ligon's "Connecting Linear Harmony" book, have you checked that out?
The concept that you should never repeat yourself just needs some paramaters. I mean...you're still playing the same instrument, in the same tuning system, in the same time signature...over the same tunes...
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