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"But if you're unaware of what you're playing, how in control are you?"
Originally Posted by Reg
One can be in complete control without knowing (analytically) what he is playing. We all know this from singing. We learn to sing songs after hearing them and we sing on pitch with records without even knowing what key it is. When we scat or just catch ourselves humming, we don't know what scale or chord it is. We don't have to.
That said, some times you need to 'think your way through' passages--unusual changes, new material, something you're just not feeling at the moment--but as for your general question, yes, of course one can be 'unaware' (-in the sense you mean) and sound fine.
I'm not a great player. I wish I was but I'm not. I'm not asking anyone to take my word for something because it's mine. But it's just obvious that a ton of great jazz has been played by people who would give you the fish eye if you asked them what "harmonic concept" they were thinking of on that second chorus. Not everyone thinks that way. It's fine and dandy(-fine and mellow?) if you do, but not everyone thinks that way.
I am NOT against technique or practice or theory. I'm just FOR lines that sound cool to me, and it turns out that a lot of them are pretty simple, though when well executed in the right spots, they soar. I think like a singer---I wanna sing stuff I wanna sing and I wanna play stuff I want to hear, and a lot of it ain't that complicated.
I appreciate many things I don't care to do myself, and I can enjoy analysis of styles I don't play. (I studied philosophy and theology--I love a great analysis!) But I don't think Charlie Christian would have sounded any better if he knew more theory!
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10-08-2012 08:04 PM
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Do you need to know everything to know anything.... Obviously not.
Hey Mark...I do basically agree with you... Maybe a better approach would be to use examples of lines and what they could imply. The difficulty is we need to post examples and most don't want or don't have the set up to do so.
I'll read your lines and try to transpose to different application... might help hear and see how the lines work... Or we might have beaten the subject into the ground...
Just a note for playing fast bebop lines... you need accents, which rhythmically helps organize your line... many times when you break down the line or pattern your playing... there is a simple collection of target notes , and you can connect them anyway you choose. much easier than memorization of entire lines... hey and your actually playing in a jazz style as compared to memorize and perform. Reg
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You don't think of anything when you improvise. If you are thinking about what to play, it means you haven't practiced it enough.
Does a tennis player think about how/when to use his forehand? I don't think so...he/she just play...
The time to think is while you're practicing...
Enjoy!!
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Generally, what happens with this, if you have reasonable ears and know the changes, will be a repetitive 'skirting' of certain notes in the chord/s, at best. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Inner movement won't happen naturally. For that, you have to dig deeper.
That inner movement, and its understanding, will be the catalyst for many different paths through the music, a much better chance to develop the narrative in fresh ways.
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You're bang on. One shouldn't 'think' scales or arpeggios. These are the source of those melodies. They can provide your ear and heart with many more options for melodic material when you delve deeper into the possibilities. Originally Posted by Gle55nn
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yo, mike, you're quoting a spammer!! this is a scam to up their link count or something. the little X's are a dead give-away. the actual content of the post is EXACTLY copied from #2 this thread. Originally Posted by mike walker
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lol, you're joking!!!??? Originally Posted by randalljazz
yo, mike, you're quoting a spammer!! this is a scam to up their link count or something. the little X's are a dead give-away. the actual content of the post is EXACTLY copied from #2 this thread.
I am not good with this stuff.
Thanks Randall, I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Can you explain a little more why they would go to such lengths?
How does this help them? Link count? I'm clueless with this stuff,man.
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don't really know, something about raising their google position, or some such, by ? being "active" in more # forums (fora?)...dunno, but whatever it is, we get a lot of them here. always the same modus operandi---exact copy (as in highlight and paste) of an earlier post in the thread. Originally Posted by mike walker
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I see, I get that now. Bizarre. Originally Posted by randalljazz
They could just use the time to get some 'time on the instrument'.
It's a funny old life. Thanks, man.
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Although chord tones/arpeggios are vital to improvisation, I don't think that scales should be totally disregarded. After all, aren't scales just rearranged 13th chords? I've found that when it comes to improv, excluvisely using arpeggios is extremely boring and greatly limits what I can play. The most interresting players (especially Charlie Parker and Joe Pass, who were previously mentioned as improvisers who always used chord tones, WRONG!) use the extensions of the chords through scales and modes, as well as the occasional chromatic. This is not to say that I don't like to use arpeggios as a PART of my improv. In fact, my favorite Kenny Burrell lick that I've transcribed is based entirely off a Am7 arpeggio. But to say that scales shouldn't be used and shouldn't be practiced is totally incorrect.
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I don't think anyone has seriously suggested using arpeggios exclusively. Yes, Parker and Pass used more than arpeggios but this doesn't mean they thought in terms of scales rather than chords. (It is possible that two players could play the same line while conceiving it in different ways.) Parker was clear about thinking in terms of chords and "upper intervals." This doesn't mean he didn't know scales. Many bop-era jazz licks involve playing notes above and below the next chord tone, so you might play all the notes of a scale (and a chromatic or two) while thinking only of the chord tones. Originally Posted by rob l
I prefer thinking in terms of chord tones; someone else may prefer playing in terms of scales. Both ways can work. Historically, I think it's pretty clear that the emphasis was on chords before it was on scales.(But saying the emphasis was on chords does not mean people only played chord tones!)
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If you're using anything to improvise it'll sound boring. You use scales or arpeggios as an organization system...not to dictate what notes you use to improvise...
This is such a non issue....you got 12 notes available. Organize them and play. Sometimes I think we look for things to disagree about.
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Welcome to the forum. Originally Posted by rob l
Last edited by monk; 10-28-2012 at 04:03 PM. Reason: spelling
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So what was the debate again? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I reckon some could think in both ways.
Some might like to see the Chord tones as part of the scale they come from.
See the trees as part of the landscape, so to speak.
I don't see a problem in that at all.
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Exactly. And people seem to be caught up in this idea that you have to choose this or that, and if you choose one approach you must leave out another. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In my opinion, scales and arpeggios are mechanics, visuals, and components of lines. They are one way to practice and they are tools to craft lines from.
A healthy practice regimen should also include learning licks by ear, and composing them, then integrating them on the guitar.
Then in the end, it comes together and the organizational system can't really be boiled down to one thing, because when it comes down to playing, the player visualizes line forms containing all these things.
That's the point where a line is conceived in the mind and is "mapped out" on the guitar and that map, path or whatever one would call it is likely to contain many different elements.
I'd recommend anyone to practice allegedly "contradicting" approaches because they will always complement each other in the end when internalized. It's usually "scales vs ear" - practice both.
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This is where the problem lies. Thinking in terms of chords does not equal thinking in terms of arpeggios! They are not the same thing. Yes, an arpeggio is 'the notes of a chord played one at a time' but "thinking chordally" doesn't mean "thinking about arpeggios." To take a simple example, if you're playing "Summertime" in A-, a chordal thinker will likely think of A- as a ii chord and think of the tune as in G and not C, which is the relative major of A-. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
Another example involves knowing when to play G + over F7.
Or consider the series of triads over a Dom 7 chord: major, minor b 5, minor, major, minor, major. Charlie Parker would switch out the minor flat 5 (B minor flat 5 for G7, for example) for a straight minor, which would take things into another key. If you think of this in terms of chords, it is much easier to hear (and play) what he was dong than if you think of it in terms of scale choices. At least, I find it much easier.
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I agree and disagree. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
A family of arpeggios lend themselves to a key center, or scale if you will regardless of how they are practiced. Triad pairs a whole step apart is a good example - they lend themselves to a key where those are the IV and V degree triads. The player can choose to relate these to the parent scale or look at them as a separate entity. Both approaches may influence his decisions in different ways.
As for mental roadmaps, yes I agree that it is a good idea to also practice them as separate entities. The scale alone as a roadmap for a while. Then practice a different approach where arpeggios, chord shapes or chord tones act as visuals that can be embellished etc.
Then maybe practice arpeggios as part of a scale where they overlap the scale shape to try to bring the concepts together.
For practicing it's good to choose one concept at the time IMO. Then when they are automatic, it will be easy to merge them and then a crossing over of knowledge usually happens(in my experience). There is now a composite concept in its own right, if that makes sense.
My 2 cents.
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Why would they think that? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
You still have to know function. Again, it's a non issue. There's no dichotomy...12 notes...organize them and play.
And Summertime is very much a minor tune...it's NOT in C major.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 11-09-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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^^^ Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
This
Again, it is this simple. What is the problem?
I'm not even sure what the debate is to be honest.
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Think/improvise? An oxymoron. The whole idea is *not to think*. Best to practice your scales and modes at home ( Maintain technical and theoretical facility) and leave it at home. But, I consider it good advice for you to able to sing each scale and mode (hard work, but really worth it), there of, without your guitar as the crutch, and in all 12 keys. In this manner, you will own them and thus be able to draw from the criteria *intuitively*, because you have them in your head already. If you must think scales, etc, you will remain in superficial mode and not really improvising. The ongoing problem with these types of discussions is in the misunderstanding of when and where to think scales and theory; not about forsaking the over all study. Does a boxer think about throwing the next punch once he is out of his corner and fully and split-secondly engaged? Originally Posted by rcaballero
TD
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Why would they think that? Probably because it's how they learned to play jazz. Thinking in terms of chords (-which, again, is not the same thing as thinking of / playing arpeggios) is how generations of players learned to play jazz. The scalar approach become current when professors started *teaching* jazz to students, rather than one band member (-often the pianist) showing another one how to iron out a trouble spot or navigate a tricky bridge. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I know "Summertime" is a minor tune. I mentioned C major because that is the same key signature as A-. But improvising over "Summertime" in A- and thinking "G" (-which is about as simple a thought as one can have while improvising; it's not even "in G" , just "G") is something jazz players have actually done. There's a long tradition in jazz of treating major chords as I chords and minor chords as ii chords, wherever they may be in a progression. A- is the ii chord of G. What could be simpler?
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It's absolutely this simple. It's a non-argument. Originally Posted by Tony DeCaprio
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Uh, are you seriously asking whether boxers set up punches? Yes, they do. They're also hyper-vigilant about The Other Guy's best punch and how to guard against it. They look for openings while keeping themselves defended. Boxers spend a lot of time trying to distract their opponents, jabbing with one hand hoping to create an opening for a punch with the other. It's a fast sport, and boxers spend hundreds of hours training for a fight that might last less than a half-hour. Originally Posted by Tony DeCaprio
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I disagree. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Improvisation is the spontaneous reorganization of known material. Joe Pass said time and again he wasn't making it up off the top of his head. Neither was Charlie Christian or Charlie Parker. Same thing with Lester Young: "Bird has his licks and I have my licks." Herb Ellis played out of the "shape system" that he taught. It's a simple system but he could work wonders with it. These were all world-class improvisers. Their lines always sounded like them because they did the same sorts of things over and over. (They weren't all doing the same things; each had his own bag of tricks, an approach that suited their tastes and talents and an approach that they applied to most everything they played. It's why they always sounded like themselves!)
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You can at least quote my whole thought. Or thoughts...I've been pretty clear on my opinion in this thread.
The point is, everything needs to be internalized. If you're trying to think as you play, you're asking for trouble. You should be trying to hear...if you can do both, more power to you...I ain't that good
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