Ideas that work against V as well as I....

[princeplanet]

I think melody is the most important thing. All the arpeggio approach notes, extensions and theory are only a means to make your ears aware of more melodic possibilities. Study, then put the music first. Think of what your listener hears, not what the musician theorises.

But that is exactly what I feel like I'm doing when I stop thinking too much about the changes, I free my "ear" to explore melodies that I'm pre- hearing and trying to play. When I have recorded myself improvising, my best lines weren't accidents, nor were they the prefab lines or devices. They were melodies that somehow contain their own inner logic, that no analysis can explain.

If we take things back to skating in a blues context, what makes one line give you goosebumps, whilst another may make you feel like someone farted in the room? It ain't the chord tone analysis, that's for sure! My fave players, including Shorter as mentioned earlier, go beyond just merely the numbers, but into the "twilight zone" of pure expression where they don't seem to be thinking of the numbers. Mind you, I'm definitely not suggesting that you can play like that without the years of training required to cultivate the ear! We all know that Bird quote about first leaning your instrument, then "just play". But I wonder how many of us reach the point where we cut ourselves enough slack to "just play" ?

If I were a teacher, I think I would encourage students to "just play" as soon as they've learned their first scale. That way from day one they are practicing the art of making melodies with whatever means they have at their disposal. Now I know that this is the way many of you have learned to play, but somewhere along the line where I decided to build a vocab and master all the devices, subs and patterns I thought I needed, years went by where I began to lose the "bravura" I once had when improvising. It's ok, my freewheeling moments nowadays are far better informed precisely because of all the discipline ingrained. But I do realize I missed out on a lot of fun! So, just saying that I wish I had invested more time in, well, "noodling", and that a good way to encourage that is to play "ambi-tonic" material, where the ear/mind/hands chain learns to guide you to make melodies that you are spontaneously hearing.

FWIW, my ears don't always hear 7ths and 3rds ! Maybe all those years of practicing extensions are making me pre hear 9ths, 11ths and 13ths a lot more often, not to mention the altered and blue notes....

[JensL]

Even if Parker said "just play", we all know he did not just play. Shorter might be playing less full and more unclear but that does not mean that he does not know what he is doing. In the recordings with Blakey he is sometimes playing twice as many changes as there is in the song.

I have very often presented students with a scale and told them to "just play", and in most cases it does not really get any without some sort of guidance. The total freedom and lack of technical ability is making it impossible to create anything and they get tired of hearing themselves running up and down the scale at random, or repeating whatever lick they have in their fingers all the time.

I guess what I try to teach is more like composition and listening. It is not only important to know your arpeggios but also to sit down and write a solo or 10 licks etc with the material and then to play it and figure which parts sound good and which parts don't. Otherwise arps or any other set of tonal material is meaningless, and composing licks with it is the best way to develop a sense of melody, which in the end will enable you to play more freely and not get stuck in the material.

Maybe "just listen" would be a better option? listen to yourself and listen to others, and figure out where you want to take it.

Jens

[princeplanet]

Maybe "just listen" would be a better option? listen to yourself and listen to others, and figure out where you want to take it.

Jens

Well, yeah, to a student, that would be the first and perhaps best thing. Let's face it, if a student really figures out how to listen, he/she could probably get by without a teacher!

[JensL]

Well, yeah, to a student, that would be the first and perhaps best thing. Let's face it, if a student really figures out how to listen, he/she could probably get by without a teacher!

I hope you don't mind if I try to teach students to be independent problem-solving guitarist at whatever level they are at. I don't keep things from them so that they are dependent on a teacher. IMO the most important part of teaching is listening to the student and try to give information on what to study and how to study it.

On another note: I have had several students with perfect pitch, so they can hear more or less everything, and most of them still don't play great lines without training....

Jens

[Spirit59]

princeplanet,

I think I know what you mean regarding the "just play" idea, as it really resonates with me, and I think you might be misunderstood here.

(or I could be completely fulla $hit!)

The point is most beginning students (or not so beginning) are terrified of the idea of "just playing". True, they may not have much to say at this point in their development, and it's not important for the music to be good. But a lot of the problem is the fear of doing something "wrong". Even all alone in a room, under no discernible pressure, it's just something that most students wouldn't do. It's a kind of inhibition. Students should be encouraged to "just play", putting the emphasis on the word "play", as in, "have fun - be free!" What's the worse thing that could happen?

They don't even have to know a scale - just one or two notes is enough, in fact maybe preferable - put the emphasis on rhythm.

Tell them to do this alone at home. Unless they're naturally outgoing, having them do this in your presence will likely make them feel that they're being "put on the spot".

It's a shame that so many are robbed of so much joy because of inhibitions and insecurity.

[princeplanet]

Yeah, seems to me some teachers teach the way they were taught. But if I ever taught Jazz, I think I would not want my students to learn the way I did!

[Double 07]

Yes that's a question isn't it? Well one of the nice things about music is that there are so many myriad ways you can approach a given musical situation from an improvisational standpoint. Do you play a whole host of outside notes over that G7 or do you just play the 3rd and the 7th? While playing the 3rd and the 7th or the 3rd and the root, up two octaves, might sound cool and very hip in one circumstance if that's all you ever do on G7 it will probably start to sound monotonous to the audience after a while.

Yet playing something that sounds more vague in terms of outlining the changes also has its charm at times. Probably better yet if you can sound like your nailing the changes at other times as well. Just more variety and excitement you can add to your playing by varying your approach to fit the mood, your mood, the song, or even different choruses of the same tune. If you listen to enough jazz you'll hear that type of thing a lot.

One suggestion might be to expand your conception of what a chord is beyond the 3rd and the 7th. You can riff of of those all day and still not sound like you're playing jazz. Think about all of the possible extensions of a given chord. Now you also have other tasty and interesting notes 6th's, 9th's, b5th's, 11th's. 13th's, etc, etc that also describe the chord and also begin to add more interest/flavor to your playing.

Arpeggios are very important to understand and have under your belt. All of the musical tools arpeggios, pentatonics, whatever, they are all important and the more you have a grasp on all of them the more cool sounding stuff you'll be able to play. Good luck with your playing.