How Important is the Rhythm Section in Making a Solo Good?

[AlsoRan]

I am starting to have the opinion that all the transcendent, great guitar solos in Jazz History also had a really good rhythm section comping behind them.

I think this is especially true of Bebop, Hard Bop, and other sub genres that swing.

Would you folks agree?

And if this is true, then you just can't hire a guy who can play chords to back you up and still get great Jazz.

I believe the two are inseparable.

[MarkRhodes]

Well, the greatest players tended to play with good rhythm sections! (I mean, why wouldn't they? And why wouldn't a great rhythm section want to play for Wes, or Sonny Rollins, or Diz, or...) An infamous exception is Coleman Hawkins---listen to his "Body and Soul," a phenomenally popular and influential version of that tune, and you'll hear that the orchestra ain't in his league.

The best like to play with the best.

[MaxPicks]

A strong soloist can drag a band along, but the solo, without decent backing, just can't cut loose. The soloist will have the rhythm section nagging at the back of his/her mind instead of supporting the soloist. The soloist will hold back lest the rhythm section get lost. I think the rhythm section is the most important part of any band, be it classical, jazz, rock, whatever. Bach played with weak rhythm is lame. Donna Lee with a plodding rhythm section is just a bunch of chords. Try playing a blues in front of an oom-pah piano player. Rhythm is 90% of good music.

[docbop]

A great rhythm section brings music to life and the soloist or front person will sound 100% better. A bad rhythm section just drags down the best soloist or front person. Guess that why great artists work/pay hard to get the best section players.

[AlsoRan]

Wow. I am surprised to see someone rank rhythm that high in the equation. I am a relative newbie/intermediate who has never played with a band or performed so I look to this forum to answer some questions I have like this, and help resolve some questions.

Thanks.

[cosmic gumbo]

I think a great rhythm section helps the soloists transcend their limits. My favorite role is comping in a keyboardless quartet or larger, I know my contribution is as important as any solo, and is as musically satisfying. At the end of the day, most working guitarists spend more time as a member of the rhythm section, than soloing.

[mtierney]

I also find that a good drummer makes me play SO much better-- the difference in drummers matters more to me than the difference in piano or bass players oftentimes (of course there are exceptions, and it's hard to generalize like that). You get these drummers that get up there and do their swing feel and kinda noodle around on the snare a little bit, throw in some fills, whatever, and they end up sounding like BIAB drums. And I can usually handle that just fine, especially because we've all practiced with backing tracks before! But you really don't know what you're missing until you get up there with a drummer who really knows the form, knows his dynamics and LISTENS. The listening is infinitely important for bass, piano, and guitar too, but a lot of drummers think that they're exempt from that, and they never free themselves up from that 1 2&3 4&.... pattern.

I like to imagine what it would be like to play with some of the classic rhythm sections. I mean, just think about how much you would benefit from playing with Paul Motian and Scott LaFaro! (not that that's all that Billy-boy had going for him...!) But to have such a strong connection as that trio did to each other benefitted all of them.

[NSJ]

Miles Davis: "there is nothing worse for a front line soloist than to play with an uninspiring rhythm section. The drummer's gotta have THAT fire!"

[MaxPicks]

I also find that a good drummer makes me play SO much better-- the difference in drummers matters more

A good drummer is a joy in the eyes of the gods.

[jazzuki]

The rhythm section is the whole platform from which all great big bands thru the 40's to the 80's where so good.If as a soloist you have a great section really swinging behind you laying down a great groove they feed the player great ideas.Freddie Green wasnt hired by Basie because he was a great soloist. Wes employed by Lionel Hampton when he (Wes) couldnt read music but was a great rhythm man the rest came during the two years he stayed with Hampton.Cosmic Gumbo has it right!

[MaxPicks]

And this is why we should practice comping at least as much as soloing. We need to light that fire for the soloist.

[Billnc]

I play bass and rhythm guitar and I've had people playing behind me. If the whole unit is cooking the music is great. One weak link drags it all down. In theory a great soloist doesn't need a rhythm section (Sonny Rollins anyone?) But the whole band better be good.

I really enjoy comping, playing bass and in general backing people up. A few short solos if I even get them and all is well.

[Section Player]

I've done some of comping, a little soloing, and also playing guitar with a keyboard player in combos. So here are some two cents worth:

If you're backing a solo, the key is to listen to what the guy is doing and try to make the solo sound better. That's your job. So, instead of just slogging along being a metronome, don't draw attention away from the soloist but try to be creative in making him sound better. You gotta have a solid tempo, though, and get locked in with the bass and drums.

A lot of keyboard players, in jazz anyway, aren't necessarily used to sitting in a combo with another chordal instrument, so they tend to take up all the space when playing chords. So, I find it useful to talk things over with the keys; trade choruses for comping, or trade soloists....you take the sax solo, I'll take the trumpet solo....whatever. Or you comp on this chart; I'll comp on the next one.

If the keys are taking the solo, just don't play anything. Keyboard guys tend to comp for themselves, usually with their left hand. More power to them. Or at least ask the guy if he'd like for you to shut down while he's soloing. If he wants you to comp, keep it as simple as possible. Try some three note chords, use a lot of silence. Make space for him.

When I'm soloing, I want to hear those changes from the keyboard and the bass. Bring it on. But I don't want the keyboard all over the place either; I'd like him/her to pretty much stay in the middle of the keyboard and keep it simple but with jazzy voicings.

If the rhythm section is playing too loud when you're soloing, play softer! Maybe they'll get it when they can't hear you (or maybe I stink tonight and they don't want to hear me!).

I agree 100% with the comments about the importance of the drummer. I've seen/heard too many who don't listen to the soloist, don't adjust their dynamics, don't go with the emotion in the solo. Again, some are just a loud, monotonous metronome. I'm just an amateur and I realize a lot of drummers are learning, too, and are progressing in their skills. They should listen to someone like Jack DeJohnette (sp?). I really, really like a good, sensitive jazz drummer, amateur or pro.

[jovialspoon]

Another point to remember is that while we musicians are actively listening to the soloist, most of the audience will be just feeling the groove. And they (usually) are in the majority. So when the gig is over, it’s the band with the cookin’ rhythm section that sends people home happy.

[Section Player]

That's a great point, 'spoon. Also would apply, in a lot of cases, to the material chosen. (As in: you gotta be really into jazz to sit and really dig a Coltrane solo. I'm there, but couldn't take a steady diet of it, and don't have the chops anyway.)

[MaxPicks]

Another point to remember is that while we musicians are actively listening to the soloist, most of the audience will be just feeling the groove. And they (usually) are in the majority. So when the gig is over, it’s the band with the cookin’ rhythm section that sends people home happy.

Right on.

[ecj]

I am starting to have the opinion that all the transcendent, great guitar solos in Jazz History also had a really good rhythm section comping behind them.

I think this is especially true of Bebop, Hard Bop, and other sub genres that swing.

Would you folks agree?

And if this is true, then you just can't hire a guy who can play chords to back you up and still get great Jazz.

I believe the two are inseparable.

Absolutely. Thanks to YouTube we get to see this proven all of the time. Go look up your favorite modern player and find a few videos of them playing with student groups at festivals. They'll still sound like the great players they are, but you'll never hear the same kind of magic happen that was on the recordings.

In my opinion the rhythm section is inseparable from the soloist in post-bop jazz. Can you imagine "A Love Supreme" without Tyner or Elvin?

[patskywriter]

i play rhythm guitar. that's it. my goal has always been to play lovely chords while swingin hard. when i listen to jazz live i'm sometimes frustrated because i sense that when the guitarist is comping, he's just biding his time and waiting for his turn to solo.

i once had the opportunity to play with oscar brown jr. the other musicians—piano, bass, and sax—were way past me in experience and i felt that i was out of my league. well, i did my thing as usual, and at the end, when we were introduced to the crowd, i was totally expecting to be "invisible" and to get a smattering of applause. to my shock, i got huge applause (2nd only to oscar!). i felt so honored and didn't even think anyone was paying any attention to the chords. that let me know that appreciative people in the audience really do care about what's happening "in the background" and that we shouldn't take them for granted.

[amusiathread]

I'll go so far as to say that in any genre, not just jazz, the rhythm section ( and other supporting roles) are extremely important. The first thing I hear is the drummer, and if the drummer isn't interesting, I'm bored as hell, regardless of the soloist.

[Billnc]

I'll go so far as to say that in any genre, not just jazz, the rhythm section ( and other supporting roles) are extremely important. The first thing I hear is the drummer, and if the drummer isn't interesting, I'm bored as hell, regardless of the soloist.

The greatest rock bands were rhythm sections IMO, The Who comes to mind.

[Atticus]

I enjoy playing rhythm at least as much as soloing. Part of the reason I switched from playing mostly bass to guitar was because of my interest in harmony. Even for a jazz fan, I still find it hard to process soloists who just reel off chorus after chorus without feeling connected to the tune or like they're saying something beyond "Check out how fast/high I can play". I'm mostly content to sit back and lock in with the rest of the rhythm.

One of my favorite tricks is one I learned from Victor Wooten's book: have the rhythm section back down the volume and play very softly and simply, to give the soloist a lot of room to work. As the chorus ends, the rhythm section builds back up to a climax. And as a result, even if the soloist did nothing of real merit, all of a sudden his solo is ridiculously awesome. And this is impossible to pull off unless the whole band is on the same wavelength.

Another fun one: My high school jazz band did an arrangement of Killer Joe where we added a funky breakdown: an extended bass solo, and then the rhythm section got to explore their own space for a bit while soloists played on top of it. And even though we were all playing with our own little tricks, the best reactions were always for the rhythm section showed how in sync we were, like a guitar fill and drum fill matching up perfectly.

[guitarfitch]

Got to have good backing players. Trouble with many weaker players is that they don't know how to lay back and keep it simple.