Lydian mode on every maj7 chord?

**lemongonggong** · 07-12-2012, 01:04 PM

Hi guys,

I know that on a maj7 type chord, the Ionian mode or Lydian mode (for a Maj7#11 sound) can be played. Is there any situation whereby the Ionian mode is more advisable (or rather the Lydian mode being a not so appropriate scale) to be played, or can I just play the lydian mode every time I see a maj7 chord?

Cheers,

Raymond

**mr. beaumont** · 07-12-2012, 01:39 PM

Lydian's almost always fair game...i'll often check the chord progression by playing the chord as a maj7#11 which will let me know if the lydian note is a potential landing place or something i need to be more careful with.

There are certain contexts, older styles, where the lydian is a bit out of place...not saying you can't use it, just might raise a few eyebrows.

**JakeAcci** · 07-12-2012, 01:41 PM

I think it's extremely subjective. For my taste, I'd find playing a lydian pitch collection over every major seventh chord to be an obnoxious sound, especially if the chords in question are clearly functioning as Imaj7.

The only difference between lydian and ionian is that lydian has a #4/11 and ionian has a natural 4/11. I think that for you to answer your own question you need to be able to not only hear the difference between #4 on major seventh vs 4 on major seventh, but also listen historically for the different uses of each - and I'm not talking about the full mode in this case, just the difference between 4 and #4 over a major seventh. For example, you won't ever hear Charlie Parker playing a lydian motif over a maj7 chord, especially not Imaj7. You'll hear McCoy Tyner doing it, but often accessing it through a pentatonic scale - 2 3 #4 6 7 - and using quartal patterns. You'll hear John Williams composing with it for films, but that may or may not be how you want to sound when improvising over jazz tunes.

Other considerations I suppose...

-If you're playing over Imaj7 (in a context where the key center is clear,) then the ionian mode is diatonic to that key.

-If you're playing over IVmaj7 then the lydian mode is diatonic to that key.

-If you're playing over bVImaj7 then the lydian mode is diatonic to that (i) minor key

-If you're playing over bIIma7 then the lydian mode of the bII is just like the minor scale from I, except the 2 (relative to the I) is lowered a half step. (For example, if you're in the key of C minor and play Dbmaj7, then Db lydian has the same notes as C minor except the D turns into Db.)

-Both the #4 and nat 4 have significant sounds over a maj7 chord. It's much, much more common for a #4 to be sustained over a maj7 than a natural 4. Just sitting at a piano and doing that once should make that pretty clear. The #4 is even more normal/consonant sounding when it is harmonized with the 9.

-There's no law that says every chord has to take a seven note scale. Often on major seventh chords I may just play from a six note collection: 1 2 3 5 6 7, or a five note collection: 2 3 5 6 7. Or four...2 3 5 7 or 2 3 6 7...etc etc.

-If you're trying to improvise in a specific style, there's probably nothing better than just analyzing the improvisations that have already been recorded in that style to answer questions about what notes are used when. If you're not trying to improvise in any specific style or within any tradition, then I personally think just experimenting, recording, and listening will probably answer the question of what notes to use over a maj7 chord. But it certainly makes things easier to analyze what other people have done.

-Every note over every chord has a specific sound. It's hard to know which ones to use if you can't clearly hear them in your head, without the guitar.

Just my opinions, hope that is helpful or useful in some way...

**Krenwin** · 07-12-2012, 01:46 PM

Lydian
Lydian Augmented
Lydian Dimished

**AmundLauritzen** · 07-12-2012, 04:25 PM

Thinking lydian is cumbersome.

What key are you in? That's all you need to know. Solo from the key center.

Then that maj7 is usually on 1st or 4th degree. For a tonic major, just play the sharp eleventh - no big deal.

For a subdominant major, the lydian is already in your key center/parent scale.

To me, lydian is not a scale. It's just a #11 that I visualize as a chord tone and relative to the other chord tones of that maj7. I think it makes more sense that way.

**henryrobinett** · 07-12-2012, 04:34 PM

I agree with amundlauritzen. Every scale and most songs or harmonic structures that are based on scales, have a balance. The tonic generally is the goal. As I said, GENERALLY. So I see/hear a "progression" or a harmonic path. If you ALWAYS subvert that path by ALWAYS going to the 4th instead of the tonic, it's going to get weary, to me at least. The best use of it is surprise and to create an tension/exception. If you ALWAYS do that or even mostly, you use up the exception and surprise.

**docbop** · 07-12-2012, 04:35 PM

I tend to use Lydian and Lydian b7 a lot, pretty sub-conscious at this point. I like the sound!

**mr. beaumont** · 07-12-2012, 04:47 PM

I took the Op to mean "are there places i shouldn't play lydian" and not "should i play lydian on every major chord."

**henryrobinett** · 07-12-2012, 05:22 PM

Could be. I was responding to the title of the thread. Then again he DID ask, "Is there any situation whereby the Ionian mode is more advisable (or rather the Lydian mode being a not so appropriate scale) to be played, or can I just play the lydian mode every time I see a maj7 chord?" But I'm known for reading too quickly and missing some salient points.

**JonnyPac** · 07-12-2012, 05:45 PM

I agree with Jake here. Taste and context over all.

There are no real *always* do this and *never* do that shortcuts in music, IMHO. Some tools get the sound you want and some don't. Picking a pitch collection should take into consideration many things. Some might include: modal/tonal function, genre, common practice, overall harmonic complexity, global/local outlining, specific/general playing, inside/outside, the written melody, harmonic rhythms, the composer's intentions, etc. These all point towards different choices- some cancel others out and leave a few "first choices", but not rules like ALWAYS use this over EVERY such and such. Reductionism does not help too much in the long run.

I have my personal bag of favorites for certain situations, but know that there are other possibilities out there that are valid.

**bako** · 07-12-2012, 08:54 PM

Starting with a chord sequence I observe the commonalities and differences of the harmonic areas associated with those chords.
From there I choose whether to emphasize the sameness or the difference.

IMa7 / IVMa7 (ionian to lydian)

To make CMa7 closer to FMa7
Common tone A---CMa6
Common tone F---CMa7sus

To make FMa7 closer to CMa7
Common tone G---FMa9
Common tone B----FMa7#11

Common tone D---CMa9 FMa6

IMa7 / IVMa7 (ionian to ionian)

F ionian brings in differential tone Bb
Bbma7 and Gm7 are possible passing chordsto accentuate the Bb to B difference.
I would probably be cautious of the E Bb tritone that implies C7

IMa7 / IVMa7 (lydian to lydian)

C lydian brings in differential tone F#
F lydian B maintains a common tone

GMa7/C, Bm7/C, Em11/C
CMa7/F, Em7/F, Am11/F

IMa7 / IVMa7 (lydian to ionian)

Using the ionian/lydian Ma7 models, this one represents the biggest note collection differential.

CDEF#GAB----FGABbCDE

Here's a Cma7 Fma7 chord sequence (2 voicings per measure). Each measure CMa7 includes an F# note. Each measure of FMa7 includes a Bb note.

X C X A D F#-----X X G C D E

X D X Bb C F-----X X F G C E

X C X B D G-----X X G D F# B

X D X C F Bb-----X F X E G C

X X C F# G D

Anyway, my attempt to illustrate this type of thinking applied to I IV.

Other Ma7 pairs

CMa7 BbMa7

Bb lydian maintains common tone E

CMa7 AbMa7

Ab lydian maintains common tone D

Cma7 DbMa7

Db lydian maintains common tone G

Cma7 EbMa7

Eb lydian maintains common tone A

Cma7 F#Ma7

F# lydian maintains common tone B#/C
F# ionian maintains common tone B

One last point, lydian IMa is possible, ionian IV is possible
A major blues for example might be I7, IV7 and V7, beyond the scope of major scale harmony.
If you like the sound of something then please play it, we'll figure out a good explanation tomorrow or the next day.

**Reg** · 07-13-2012, 10:30 AM

The note collection, in this example, over a Maj7 chord... is rarely a fix collection of notes in jazz. Choice of scale, arpeggio or how ever you choose to use the notes collection... is from some system of organization.

There is always a harmonic or melodic concept going on or being implied. And the fun part in jazz....that concept or a new concept can introduce new relationships and develop. By concepts I'm talking about systems of organizing general tendencies of the music. It does get somewhat complicated... I could use almost any collection, (scale) over a maj7 chord in almost any tune... and depending on how well I use the system or method of organizing all the relationships... could sound very diatonic....

The bottom line... you need to be able to make quick analysis of what your playing.... Which means your going to decide which relationship(s) are most representative of the tune. Somewhat like deciding how you think the music should be heard... or how you want it to be heard......determine how your going to approach those choices.
Now you actually have the information to make a decision of which (scale), your going to use.

Very rarely is there simply one concept going on... one collection of notes being used over or through one chord.
You could have a blue note harmonic concept working with a tonal diatonic concept... example could be ;
Gmaj7 .../D-9.../ Ebmaj9.../ E7#9.../ with a lead line of D, E, F, G
You could end up using almost any scale over that Gmaj7
So the Blue notes could have a few sources... which open the harmonic/melodic material from those sources. By tonal diatonic... I'm implying a diatonic system... but determined by the tonal system your using.

Anyway... what can and usually does happen... you play off the basic changes, (melody)... you make quick analysis... which would give you;

1) if your a chord tone person.... collection of chord tones and then decide on how you want to determine the rest of the pitch collections...

2) if your a complete note collection person... from your analysis you have typical scale choices which are generally used in jazz.

Now from either choice... you introduce relationships, harmonic or melodic and develop them as you see or hear fit...

The better you become at your approach... the easier it becomes to combine different methods of controlling those relationships and how they may develop.

There is always also a rhythmic influence... harmonic rhythm.. which can and usually does accent the more influential harmonic areas.

Reg

**AmundLauritzen** · 07-13-2012, 11:35 AM

Well said, Reg!

As you say, lots of things could be going on at once. That's why I feel "lydian scale" is redundant, because there is too much information in that. Being able to locate that #11 by itself requires less thought, and doesn't require thinking of another scale. It's quick and easy to access from whatever you're playing from at the moment, if it's a scale fragment, chord shape, arpeggio or whatever.
And for triad pair C and D major over a Cmaj7 for example, I find it so much easier to just visualize those two triads together than to start messing around with thinking about a new scale, although it could be analyzed as lydian or borrowing from G major.

**henryrobinett** · 07-13-2012, 11:44 AM

Yeah. I never think in terms of modes, or even scales. But they're a great entry way for novices. The chord is king (or queen) in my book. The balances of tones and the tension between tonic and dominant, and all of their little parleys, is what makes it interesting. The scales are just foundation construction but dull when on their own.

**bako** · 07-13-2012, 06:11 PM

Gmaj7 .../D-9.../ Ebmaj9.../ E7#9.../ with a lead line of D, E, F, G

Voiced with added passing chords GMa7 CMa9 / Dm9 C/Bb / EbMa9 Cm11 / FmMa9 E7#9 //

G X F# B D X ----- X C G B D X (G Major)

X D F C E X ------- Bb X G C E X (F Major)

X Eb Bb D F X ----- C X Bb Eb F X (Bb Major)

X F Ab E G X ------- X E G# D G X (F Melodic Minor)

**Reg** · 07-14-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Voiced with added passing chords GMa7 CMa9 / Dm9 C/Bb / EbMa9 Cm11 / FmMa9 E7#9 //

G X F# B D X ----- X C G B D X (G Major)

X D F C E X ------- Bb X G C E X (F Major)

X Eb Bb D F X ----- C X Bb Eb F X (Bb Major)

X F Ab E G X ------- X E G# D G X (F Melodic Minor)

Nice bako... Now what needs or should be recognized is how bako decided on what passing chords.
Just as bako added those passing chords... When you solo you can add passing harmonic areas which help organize your melodic thoughts, your melodic lines, phrases... Whatever your soloing with.

bako made desicisions of where to pull his passing chords from, which represent what he heard, wanted to hear or from a organized system of controlling musical relationships... A method of controlling the harmonic tendencies.... Where the music feels like it wants to go.

Bako gave his the choices...where the chords were from. The next step would be to be able to understand how those sources for the passing chords are organized

Many times you simply play something, what you hear or think you hear. No organization, just play or write what you hear....and when you begin to try and figure out what it is, (an analysis), you recognize that the music is similar to something you've heard or composed before. There is a reference to something. That in it's self is the beginning of recognizing musical systems of organization. There's a long boring history..... Who cares, but we do want to be aware of these systems of organizing music... Especially jazz systems... This is a jazz guitar forum...right.

Reg