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I recently read an article about improvising with chord tones vs improvising with the chord scale theory (I think it was on this forum, actually). The conclusion was that beginners should focus on using chord tones first. As a beginner myself, I thought I'd try this out.
I read into chord tone improvisation and found that the notes to target are the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. But isn't the 9th the same as the 2nd? Therefore couldn't one target the 2nd? And couldn't one target the 10th since its the same note as the 3rd? Apparently its good to avoid the 4th... isn't that the 11th?
Or does it depend on what octave the root is being played in? But then if you change positions and hit the root on a higher octave, do the chord tone targets all shift and change as well?
Also, for a regular major chord, would you only target the root, 3rd, and 5th? Or can you still target the rest of the chord tones even if they're not in the chord?
And how should I go about practicing this? Would it be detrimental to try outlining entire chord progressions before my ears and fingers have fully familiarized the chord tones of individual chords?
Thanks!
This is my first post here so sorry for being a noob.
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07-03-2012 01:55 AM
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Good post -- nothing wrong with being a beginner ... we all start somewhere!
I always recommend Hal Crook's "Ready, Aim, Improvise" as an excellent workbook. The first 100 pages or so are everything you need to know about theory, then the rest of the book is on improv (including what you're talking about), exercises, play-alongs, and a lot of good humor! Buy it!
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It's true that chord tones + extensions = all notes in the scale.
I've often interpreted "solo using only chord tones" as meaning just the four notes of the seventh chord 1 3 5 7, with whatever alterations to fit the chord type.
When I first started studying bebop with a great teacher I was given the instruction to, as an exercise, try soloing over tunes using only 1 3 5 7 - no extensions (no 9 11 13) and no chromatic notes.
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Keep in mind I think that "solo using chord tones" is just an exercise to learn the most basic way to play the changes. In a sense, you want to break free from those shackles once you get the hang of it.
Also, learning to hear the basic chord tones trains you to then learn to hear the tensions and extensions better. I would suggest - whatever you're doing and practicing, spend a little bit of time trying to sing the concept as well, just doing what you can.
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What a great question. When someone tells you to focus on playing the chord tones, I think they mean the notes in the chord that you want to be heard. For example, if you want there to be a 9th sound over a 7th chord that is being played by the comper, then you would include the 9th note in the group of notes that you would play. If you want a #9 sound, then include the #9.
I think the point is to train yourself to know what certain chord tones actually sound like and to learn where those sounds can be found so that you can make an informed decision as to which notes to use in you improv rather than just going up and down the scale and hoping that the notes you play sound good.
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The 3rds and 7thd are crucial because they give you the quality of the chord (-major, minor, dominant). Many players use them as "guide tones" moving from the 7th of, say, Cm7 (-which is a Bb) to the the G7 (-which is a B). It helps listeners "hear the changes."
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When you talk about chords, if you say C13 (7+6=13), it means there are the 7th in the chord. If you say C6, there are not the 7th.
Originally Posted by Woodchops
I began the improvisation with a classic blues progression. I had to use only the triton 3d & 7th over the three chords.
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Good points. But no one has really addressed the upper extension woodchops mentioned. The way best to approach them, in this method, which is a good one, though I wouldn't call it a beginner approach, is to do it from 3rds. Go from the 7th to the 9th then from the 9th to the 11th. The whole arpeggiated figure is ascending (or descending) 3rds. 1-3-5-7-9-11-13. It's easier to hear them if you approach them that way. You're right, otherwise it's scale like and contains avoid notes.
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Tell you the process I've seen in music school for teaching improv. First play through the assigned tune in basic 1-3-5-7-1 arpeggios. This teach fretboard and gets the sound of the chord changes in the ear. Depending on level of student they might start the arp's on roots and play up. Then work on starting the arp's on the 3rd, later 7th. Then student should work on connecting the arps via the closed chord tone of next chord. Now all this is typically done in one position plus or minus a fret. Then move on to other positions. This is done starting with simple tunes and progressively more difficult tunes.
For advanced players they will do the full arp 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 adjusting for chord quality. Again connection on nearest chord tone, this requires good, fast chord spelling knowledge to connected when full arp is involved. Now to really build fretboard knowledge instead of postions you set lower and upper note boundaries like lower 3rd fret and upper 12th. This opens navigation and more flowing lines. As progress is made then put altered tones on some of the chords. Also this is practiced on 2-5-1's cycling through sequences of keys. That process teaches fretboard, chord theory, and ear training.
Now when arp's are down good, use similar process with scales.Last edited by docbop; 07-04-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Perhaps my approach doesn't fit the definition.
For me a chord tone approach is a change of focus and emphasis.
Take G7.
For me the chord tones are King - G B D F (A) or (Ab) etc.
Subsidiary to that might be the mixolydian scale and the blues scale that for me lies underneath the chord tones.
And, chromatic tones also join the party which I primarily use to lead into and/or connect chord tones.
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Also, when playing G7 to Cmaj7 with a chord tone approach, I play the change in chords as there is change in chord tones and the chord tones are king.
When I'm playing a scale or key center approach, I don't have to be as aware of the chord change as I can play the pitch collection from the C major scale for both chords.
I think another characteristic of chord tone playing is you can hear the changes in the soloist line even if there was no one backing him up and playing the underlying chords.
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Hi Woodchops, and welcome to the forum!
I'll give my take on answering your questions:
"But isn't the 9th the same as the 2nd? Therefore couldn't one target the 2nd? And couldn't one target the 10th since its the same note as the 3rd? Apparently its good to avoid the 4th... isn't that the 11th?
Or does it depend on what octave the root is being played in? But then if you change positions and hit the root on a higher octave, do the chord tone targets all shift and change as well?"
This depends on chord quality. You are absolutely right in your observation on the 9th and 2nd being the same(only 9th being up an octave). This is only nomenclature. We usually speak of the 2nd in a chord when there is no third, but when we have a third we'll call it a 9th. This is probably because these two intervals are rarely voiced together in the low register.
"Also, for a regular major chord, would you only target the root, 3rd, and 5th? Or can you still target the rest of the chord tones even if they're not in the chord? And how should I go about practicing this? Would it be detrimental to try outlining entire chord progressions before my ears and fingers have fully familiarized the chord tones of individual chords? "
Here's a good way to start. First, try a vamp with just a tonic major chord. Key of C: Cmaj7 and work on targeting these tones in this order: C,E,G,B,D,F#,A. You'd work on targeting maybe the C for a while. Spend a good amount of time on each before moving on! The reason I put F# in there which is not from the key of C major, is that if you let an F natural ring over a C major, it will create lots of tension because the third of a C major chord, E, is a half step away. It's not wrong to play the F, but you'll want to use it more as a passing tone than something to linger on. These are only guidelines though.
The reason why I suggest you to start with a major chord vamp is because when you're hearing the intervals on the tonic major chord, you'll be able to resolve your lines once you start practicing over progressions.
Ask away, I'll be glad to help you get started.
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Chord tones mean 1 3 5 7. When you add in the other extensions, you're basically just using the entire scale. I honestly skipped the chord tone thing. Not that I didn't practice arpeggios, but I focused on getting past that as soon as possible. It's really boring. Do some transcribing and if you're good at theory, write down lines with arpeggios, note them down and see how the guys are using it. More modern players focus a lot on triadic stuff, but not conventional stuff like 1 3 5 7. They use a lot of triads which outline altered harmony by using upper structure stuff. Julian Lage talked to me about it once. He does some really crazy stuff with it.
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Thanks for the responses guys, I think I understand this stuff a lot better now. In regards to my learning path, I'll first finish getting the arpeggios under my fingers and then continue with soloing over vamps and then simple progressions with just 1-3-5-7 tones, adding the higher extensions once I've got that down.
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Good. Chord tones really create the harmonic direction and make things much more melodic and less scale like. Of course they also provide a lot of alternative strength because if you really learn them to the point that they're second nature, you also know where the avoid and tension notes are, which gives you a lot more control.
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I'm in the same camp as jtizzle and JakeAcci: I think of the chord tones as r 3 5 7 for these purposes. Yes, someone may play an Ab7b5#9 but that's advanced stuff. Learning how to use the chord tones should initially be simple, leaving out the upper tensions until understanding how to apply those four tones throughout a song is mastered. There is a nearly inexhaustible supply of lines with just those notes!
In short, arpeggio studies and what is necessary here so that your fingers just know where the chord tones are for each chord. There are five forms of each arpeggio and four inversions for each. That'll keep you busy. ;-)
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I think the key is (sorry for the pun) is to keep things very simple for a long while. Following the 3rds and the 7ths around should keep you busy as well. And when I want to go for upper extension arpeggios I tend to stack triads on top of the basic chord anyway. Makes things simpler.
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It's boring if you just keep playing them vanilla all the way. Targeting chord tones is a blast when you start to embellish them chromatically. Originally Posted by jtizzle
For the OP who wanted advice on this, here are some possibilities. For any chord tone, you can approach it chromatically:
-Above, Below, then chord tone
-Below, Above, then chord tone
-Above, then a whole step below and move chromatically into the chord tone.
-The opposite of above.
And these are just a few ways. Basically, You can use just about ANY figure around a chord tone! Use the chord tone as a road map for your "destination" in your "journey towards resolution" for lack of a better description. This in turn can liberate you from thinking scales, and if you are creative and come up with some cool figures to lead into chord tones, can really open up your playing! Of course you have to listen closely and use your taste and discard the ones that are undesirable to you.
To me, chord tones are a great approach to soloing that I look at as separate from scales. A great thing is also to visualize those chord tones inside chord shapes. This not only helps your soloing, but helps you learn the intervals and notes in your chord shapes!
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When you say "above, below, then chord tone," do you mean one half step above and one half step below? or one note above the chord tone in the scale and one below in the scale? or does it not matter? Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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Half step works...also try the diatonic step...but that requires knowing harmony and yes, those pesky scales.=-O
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What I mean is that it's not fun to do the "This is a Dm7, so I need to play D F A and/or C in here". I rather think of lines that do include these things but don't take the fun out by making it a scientific thought process. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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