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Hello,
As I mentioned in my introduction, I'm not a jazz guitarist in the purest from, but love jazz and would like to try and incorporate some jazz in my blues/rockabilly playing. I'm working on a tune that has a major II,V,I at the end of the progression. Any hints as to how to make that sound as though my lines are reflecting the chords? I mostly have been doing arps, but the don't pull me thru the changes as I would like. Thank you.
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06-28-2012 11:29 AM
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Sounds like you're interested in improvisation, not comping. Probably better if you post in improvisation. Or maybe Mr B will be so kind to move the post to the right place
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This thread has been moved here---Improvisation--from the forum in which it originally appeared.
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The Joe Elliot Introduction to Jazz Improvisation thread by Frank (fep) is a great way to study how to use arps for e.g. a ii-V-I. I guess buy the book and join the study group would be a great idea.
Originally Posted by PaulStory
This link will bring you into the study group:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ead-index.html
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I'm part of that group (-though I am a tortoise rather than a hare) and it's good. The Elliott book will *really* make you solid with your arpeggios in the most "common situations" jazz players encounter. It's a lot of work, but I haven't met anyone who didn't think it was worth the effort. We'd love to have you join us!
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I had presumed since I was asking about a chord progression I should have posted it in the chord section. Thanks for moving it.
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No problem, Paul. And no offense, either, but as Gersdal pointed out, you're asking about how to *improvise* over that progression, not how to voice or play the progression. Moving the thread here was aimed at generating more responses that may help you.
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Hello,
Thanks for the tip, although it seems most of those are ii,V,I licks and I'm trying to figure out II,V,I. Just switching to the major third (for the A chord) seems to make (to my ears) many ii,V,I licks sound odd. The chords come from a version of a Sippie Wallace tune called Women be Wise. The rhythm guitarist pays A,D,G as the last three chords.
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Hey paul,i am not familiar with that tune.However you say the rhythm guitarist plays A,D,G as the last three chords ,but you do not mention the chord quality,normally to do this would imply that the chords were simple Major chords.If it were a 251 as you seem to think the chords would be Amin7,D7and G Major.Playing the arpeggios of each chord is a good start but can soon become old and predictable,you can however then use this as a framework and start to add passing scale tones,chromatic approach notes,enclosures and other harmonic devices to pep it up a bit.It may also help if you could say what your current level of understanding music theory is,as it is easier to fashion a response to the persons level of understanding.You are on the right tracks though as a 251 progression is very common in jazz.
Last edited by gingerjazz; 06-28-2012 at 03:19 PM.
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Hey Paul,just checked out your website,there is some really cool music on there,i used to play in similar type bues rock bands,but moved over to jazz,studied hard and got some music theory qualifications under my belt and have never looked back.I really liked the track water.In fact i hope my post does not came across as condescending,as i wrote it before i checked out your website and realized that you are obviously an experienced musician,so i apologize if i spoke to you like a beginner.No offense was intended,Peace.
Last edited by gingerjazz; 06-28-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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Sorry. I guessed it was a typo, and I guessed wrong Originally Posted by PaulStory
I tried to make reasonable arps for a II-V-I and I struggle (possibly stuck in the ii-V-I routine). If Reg sees this I guess he will have some good stuff to add.
Ah, and a warning: as I (and Ginger ?) discovered ... check Pauls playing before replying. He maybe new to the forum, but he is not a beginner as I did first assumed (very wrongly)
Apologies to Paul for that.
Last edited by gersdal; 06-28-2012 at 05:16 PM.
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Hi Guys,
No offense taken at all, no worries and thank you very much for the kind words. I'm a noob to "real" jazz, so feel free to treat me as such It was a poorly worded question anyway... I had presumed that if there are ii,V7,I progressions there are other types of two,five,one progs. In this case the end of the tune is:
G,B9/E7/A,D/G
It's pulling me towards G major and if I'm lazy some type of G maj pent will work, but I really want to hear the changes thru my playing. Kinda like listening to the Joe Pass solo stuff, it's just him, but you really hear him move thru the changes and opposed to endless wanking. If I try to do some arps it sounds too disconnected. In my extremely limited experience with jazz I try and find the notes (in my case thirds and sevenths seem to work) to stitch it together. Thanks!!
paul
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Check out this Herb Ellis video. He plays some fairly straightforward jazz vocabulary over Am-D7-G7, A7-D7-G7, and A7-D7-G7-E7
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The A section of "Jordu" contains a II-V-I (bars 3 & 4) and a II-V-i (twice). The II and V are always dominant chords, the I is a major 7. Since it's a fairly common tune it might be worth transcribing some phrases from a solo or two to see what other people do with it.
I haven't had time to look at it properly but this might get you started:
Clifford Brown solo transcription
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You might try something using an F#m or m7 arpeggio or even the F#m pent over the A and the D then moving to the G major either pent or arp. You would want to focus on the chord tones as the progression moves along.
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Hey Paul,i am so glad i have not offended you.It is sometimes hard to not sound arrogant when posting on a forum,as we cannot put in the tone of voice you can when talking face to face.However back to your question,i think one of the best sayings i have ever heard is that everything you ever wanted to know about jazz guitar is sitting there in your cd collection.The masters are the final authority,allright thats two , but if i might be s bold as to suggest transposing a tune with lots of 251 licks in it,like miles davis tune up.I have found this to be a great way to learn what the masters did.
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Hi Colin, Originally Posted by ColinO
I have done some of that, but thinking more A maj pent, than F#m pent (same diff, but landing on different notes). It doesn't sound wrong, but it doesn't sound "connected" to me. A straight A,D,G prog is not that common in jazz (as far as I can tell, the closest I have found is A7,D7,G) as it does not follow a harmonized maj scale. One trick I have learned is if you can't figure out what to play, listen to the melody. The right notes are usually there, but like most guitar players, I feel the compelling need to "jazz" it up a bit Thanks for your comments!
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Originally Posted by gingerjazz
No worries. I tend to follow the "presume the best" rule. I have been a "lurker" for quite a while, so I'm pretty sure I know the vibe of this forum. Your advice is good and I try to follow it whenever I can... this particular prog has me a bit stumped as I can't find a straight A,D,G line anywhere in my CD collection. It's only two bars at the end of a tune, and I'm likely obsessing... but my ultimate goal is to have the changes flow thru my lines so, if there were no rhythm section, one could still hear the changes. Thanks!
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Hey Paul. I agree - the ear's the thing. I'm thinking the F# minor arp and pent because F# minor is the iii of D and the vi of A which are common substitutions and so F# minor arpeggios should work pretty good over both of those chords. Also I think of the F# minor pentatonic scale as basically the same thing as the F#m7 arpeggio so that is why I would say F#m rather than A pent. You are right though - same diff.
In the end thought, I kind of see the scales and arpeggios as a starting point and a way to get you to the ballpark. Awesome music happens when you break the rules in a cool way.
Really liked the stuff on your site by the way.
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Thank you Colin. I guess I need to work on channeling my inner Herb Ellis and try to sing lines more. The notes are there somewhere! Originally Posted by ColinO
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Hey Paul,if you are a book reader,there is a great one that is highly thought of round here,it is called "Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony" is very 251 based.It spends a lot of time pulling apart and dissecting classic bebop lines of the masters.I know what your getting at when you say you want to imply the chord changes with your improv lines,i think Dizzy Gillespie was a great exponent of that.You cannot beat a bit of Diz.
Last edited by gingerjazz; 06-29-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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I will definitely check that out. Seems like a good spot to start some studying. Thanks! Originally Posted by gingerjazz
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