Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 11

[fep]

FrankLearns and FatJeff have already started to work with the altered scale and have discussed it some on the previous thread. So, I thought it was time to start this thread. (For me, it may be a week or so before I get through what I wanted to for the previous chapters and start working on this chapter.)

From the author:

Now we are starting to intergrate some of the color tones that come with our new note options into the connecting game exercise. Your practice will start to sound more like you are playing actual jazz lines. Plan to spend a significant amount of time on this. The material in this chapter is some of the most challenging in the whole process of learning to play over changes. The use of the altered scale in the connecting game is a big step in learning to play jazz lines.

Also:

I suggest that you listen to jazz as much as possible. It's very hard to learn any style of music if you don't know how it sounds.

In this chapter we'll go thru a four step process of integrating the altered scale into our situations 3 and 4 using Pattern II minor.

And then we'll use that same four step process for situation 1 and 2 with Pattern I major.

[jster]

I'm curious what you guys think of the b5 in the altered scale.

1) When you are playing the rhythm for the Dm7b5-G7-Cm7 situations, are you leaving out the 5th? I am because the altered scale doesn't have a natural fifth. Is there somewhere where Elliott discusses that?

2) More importantly, when I solo over those G7 parts of those situations using the altered scale, the b5 still doesn't sound good to me. I thought melodic minor wasn't supposed to have any avoid notes. But it almost seems like an avoid note to me. You don't see G7b5 very often in charts. I can make it sound ok as a passing note. But if the first note I play during the G7 (half) bar is the b5 (ie the Db) it doesn't seem to work for me. The #5 I can give a pass to. But the b5 not so much. It has been kinda bothering me a long time. I have this recurring nightmare that maybe I screwed up the fingerings!

Curious what you guys think.

[fep]

I'm curious what you guys think of the b5 in the altered scale.

1) When you are playing the rhythm for the Dm7b5-G7-Cmaj7 situations, are you leaving out the 5th? I am because the altered scale doesn't have a natural fifth. Is there somewhere where Elliott discusses that?

2) More importantly, when I solo over that using the althered scale, the b5 still doesn't sound good to me. I thought melodic minor wasn't supposed to have any avoid notes. But it almost seems like an avoid note to me. You don't see G7b5 very often in charts. I can make it sound ok as a passing note. But if I the first note I play during the G7 (half) bar is the b5 (ie the Db) it doesn't seem to work for me. The #5 I can give a pass to. But the b5 not so much. It has been kinda bothering me a long time. I have this recurring nightmare that maybe I screwed up the fingerings!

Curious what you guys think.

I haven't started working on this chapter yet but I did read the chapter and have played with the altered scale before.

Regarding comping, the author talks about comping and the altered scale at the top of page 31 (chapter 9).

For the altered scale to sound good, the person comping for you needs to either play alterations in their chord vocing or avoid the 5th and extensions all together.

He also says

Tempo is a major factor in how noticeable these "collisions" are to the listener. At a fast tempo, discrepancies between the soloist's notes and the chords are less noticeable. At a slow tempo, however, greater attention needs to be paid to the interaction between the chords and the solo.

(Both those quotes are just excerpts, read the whole thing at page 31).

Regarding the b5, I'm fine with it. More often than not I don't hold any of the notes while playing over an altered dominant, I resolve to the next chord and that's where I'm likely to hold a note, on a chord tone of that next chord.

[jster]

Thanks fep. Yeah, now I remember Elliott saying that, but it had been a while since I read it. But it's not a collision because the 5 is not present anywhere. Just the R-3-7 in my rhythm track. And I'm not holding it. Just playing 8ths. I guess the problem is just that it creates a (second!) tritone. You have the R-b5 tritone (in addition to the 3-b7 one). Just not sure why they always say the MM has no avoid notes. Seems as much of an avoid note as the 4 on a I. OK, I'm going back to the woodshed to see if I can talk myself into it!

[fep]

I've never really used the avoid tone concept myself although I imagine there are tones that I've come to avoid without even thinking about it.

There are a lot of 'devices' that create collisions, like side-slipping, chromatic connectors, certain substitutions. They create momentary tensions and I think it's an important element of jazz. I wonder if it's just a matter of you getting familiar with the sound (as Elliott mentions) and getting familiar with how to use it.

[FatJeff]

I think there's just way too much attention paid to "clashing" between the rhythm section and the soloist. Just play your normal chord voicings. Any clash between the altered 5 and the rhythm part will me momentary, and may actually sound better than if you left it out.

I think the #11 (b5) sounds great, even if it is the first note I'm playing on the G7. Remember, you have to ascend or descend the rest of the altered scale after playing it.

[fep]

I'm working through the four steps from chapter 11 to incorporate the altered scale into the connecting game. For these steps we are to use Pattern II minor to start off with. Joe Elliott wrote that we should get each step up to 60bpm before moving on to the next step, I did it at 110bpm.

So here is Step 1. Playing all eighth notes for the altered scale over the V7 and landing on a chord tone for the Imi7 chord. I did this in Dbm and it looks like this, with those slash rhythms indicating the rhythms of the lines to be played.

And here is Step 2. This adds playing the arpeggio of the Imi7 chord over the Imi7.

_____________

I've attached the backing track below:

[FatJeff]

I need to review the book. I'm not doing these exercises and I'm not even aware of them :-0

[FatJeff]

Hi Fep,

Just an FYI: the sticky needs updating. :-)

Another week and a half with the kids, then I'm back to being able to spend a lot more time with the guitar.

[fep]

So here is the continuation of the four step exercise for incorporating the altered scale into the connecting game.

[FatJeff]

Sounds great man. I'll be posting similar videos once I land in my new place. Probably close to a month from now, though.

[fep]

Sounds great man. I'll be posting similar videos once I land in my new place. Probably close to a month from now, though.

Thanks Jeff, I think I'm starting to get these exercises 'in my ear' a bit. I think it's starting to sound more jazzy.

You certainly have your hands full. Looking forward to when you've got more time for guitar.

Cheers

[Frank67]

Hi guys,

I haven't dropped out, just too busy to do videos lately. But i am still practicing fairly regularly. I admittedly have a somewhat hard time with the altered scale and the connecting game (although the fingerings of the MM scale start to feel more natural). I also have some difficulties memorizing the substitutions - not a problem playing them but memorizing them in a way that it flows into everyday playing isn't really happening. But slowly slowly it does come along and i hope to post some practice with connnection to the "real world" soon (working on ATTYA)

[fep]

Hi guys,

I haven't dropped out, just too busy to do videos lately. But i am still practicing fairly regularly. I admittedly have a somewhat hard time with the altered scale and the connecting game (although the fingerings of the MM scale start to feel more natural). I also have some difficulties memorizing the substitutions - not a problem playing them but memorizing them in a way that it flows into everyday playing isn't really happening. But slowly slowly it does come along and i hope to post some practice with connnection to the "real world" soon (working on ATTYA)

Hi Frank, For the first past I'm doing what the author suggests and will try to move forward. So, I won't have all the patterns down for the connecting game in chapter 11 before moving on, just the ones the book suggests.

Later as I review, I'll add more patterns.

An easy way to remember the substitutions is a 3rd up or down. And a 3rd up is a chord tone.

For example

The major iim7 V7 I:

Cmaj7, up a 3rd, Em7, down a 3rd Am7

Dm7 up a 3rd, Fmaj7

__________

The minor iim7b5 V7 I:
Cm7, up a 3rd, Ebmaj7

I think that's all we have.?

______________

And for both we have the altered scale for the V7

[fep]

For all the situations you use the same steps. So this is the same as before except with half as many beats. I'll just post step 4 as I don't think it's necessary to post the other steps.

There is one spot were I made a mistake and played the altered scale over both the iim7b5 and the V7 chords, it sounds cool.

(Backing track attached)

[Frank67]

It sounds great Frank, really nice!

I am still practicing and for the moment have given up on doing all five patterns on the altered scale. It is slowly coming along. Hope to post some from my upcoming holidays.

[stevebellinger]

Hi Frank,

Nice playing, I,m on chapter 11, rushed through the first chapters will review at a later date.

Steve

[Frank67]

Dear friends,

holiday greetings from the beautiful lake Como in italy. I found a little time to record a practice video. I took the changes from the A part of "All the things you are", which has 4 tonalities. The first round through the changes I played the straight arpeggios. On the second I used all the substitutions (except over the short II-V's) and the altered scale over the dominant 7'ths.

I find it good practice to work on the changes of actual tunes.

Here is the recording:

... I wish I could do it fluently in all five positions but that hasn't happened yet.

Enjoy practicing!
All the best,
Frank

PS: apologies for the casual outfit ... it is too warm here :-)

[fep]

Dear friends,

holiday greetings from the beautiful lake Como in italy. I found a little time to record a practice video. I took the changes from the A part of "All the things you are", which has 4 tonalities. The first round through the changes I played the straight arpeggios. On the second I used all the substitutions (except over the short II-V's) and the altered scale over the dominant 7'ths.

I find it good practice to work on the changes of actual tunes.


... I wish I could do it fluently in all five positions but that hasn't happened yet.

Enjoy practicing!
All the best,
Frank

PS: apologies for the casual outfit ... it is too warm here :-)

Right on Frank! That sounds really good. I can hear how this is developing, going from exercises to developing jazz lines.

I really want to get to Chapter 13, 14 and 15; Writing Licks, Inserting Licks, and Disguising Licks. I think that is really going to be were we are going to hear the pay off for all this work.

To that end, I plan on working on just the Pattern I major and Pattern II minor for now; at least until I get through Chapter 15. After that I want to work back from the beginning for all the patterns. (Of course, all this is subject to change)

[Frank67]

Hi Frank,

Thanks a lot - You are very generous!

At this point i'd like to play a few thousand bars more of the connecting game with the altered scale to feel more comfortable with it (also trying to put the diminished arpeggio over dominant seventh chords which sounds great to my ears). At the moment i have to think a lot and actively force my fingers to do the right thing. I would like to feel a bit more at home with the altered scale - I think the challenge is that there are so many notes outside the parent scale which easily makes me loose coordination on the fretboard. It is slowly getting there but it will take a week or two of more work. Then i am happy to join you in writing and disgusing licks.

For the substitions - it is not so much an intellectual challenge - i just find it difficult to perform the necessary thinking process in real time. I am sure it will come with time.

This study group is really helping a lot. My teacher also confirmed noticeable progress already. He looked at the book and liked it too. I admittedly still have some pretty serious timing issues once I am asked to really improvise but at least I can see some light at the end of the tunnel now.

[fep]

So this is the same as before except for situation 1. I'm just posting step 4 but I did do the other steps.

One more to go.

(Backing track attached)

[fep]

I'm finding it hard to shift my mind in and out of the altered scale in Pattern I major. Pattern II minor was much easier for me.

Here is the last exercise for this chapter (until I revisit the chapter and do the exercises with the 4 other patterns)

[Frank67]

Your videos sound great fep - great job! It really sounds good and is coming together nicely!

I haven't come around to practice the fast changes (situations 2 and 4) and I really understand what you mean when you say that it easy to loose orientation on the fretboard while doing the altered scale in the major patterns.

Today over lunchbreak I entertained myself with a slight variant of studying situation 1 (in Ab major, so Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj7 Abmaj7).

I did a total of fourteen cycles through situation 1 in groups of two cycles where I first start on the low E string and then on the high E-string.

1. + 2. Round: play all regular arpeggios up and down
3. + 4. Round: convert to minor (Bbm7, Gm7b5, Cm7 arpeggios)
5. + 6. Round: like 3/4 but play mixolydian over the Eb7
7. + 8. Round: like 3/4 but play the altered scale over the Eb7
9. +10. Round: like 3/4 but play the Dbm7b5 arpeggio over Eb7
11.+12. Round: like 3/4 but play the Dbm7 arpeggio over Eb7
13.+14. Round: like 3/4 but play the E dimished arpeggio over Eb7

The objectives for everything up to round 8 are clear from what we did before. I then asked myself whether there isn't a signature arpeggio for the altered scale that I could play instead. While fiddeling around a bit I arrived at the Dbm7b5 arpeggio. It contains two chord tones, two tensions and is completely contained in the altered scale. I think it sounds great over Eb7. So a m7b5 arpeggio a step down from the actual dominant seventh is a formula that i'll remember. The Dbm7 arpeggio over Eb7 was just a fun experiment. It may sound a bit too "off" but nicely resolves into the Cm7 arpeggio. Interested what you think! The dimished arpeggio is standard of course to create Eb7b9 sounds that I like a lot.

Here is the video - I actually played triplets this time so that we hear more of the scale. I also made a few mistakes - hope you don't mind!

will entertain myself with the minor patterns for a while next and then be happy to join you in writing and disguising licks (I am notoriously bad in remembering licks and never managed to incorporate any in my playing).

[fep]

Hi Frank (Learns),

Nice work and way to think out of the box. You're really expanding this into your own thing. Nice creative thinking. I'm going to have to check those out.

I couldn't really get my ear around it on your video as, for me, the guitar's volume was too low in the mix.

I can see your are playing this faster now, good work on that.

[Frank67]

Hi Frank,

thanks again! That was a piece of fun. Sorry for the bad mix - in the first attempt the guitar was too dominant, in the second too weak. I have updated it again and it should sound more balanced. The problem is that it sounds different on YouTube compared to the mix I am hearing in GarageBand. It always involves a bit of trial and error. (the speed is 100 bpm - it sounds much faster because of the triplets. In hindsight I probably should have done it a bit more slowly and make fewer mistakes :-) I didn't think before and it was just two takes before posting).

I am now returning to more standard practice on the minor situations using the altered scale. Should be comfortable with it by the end of the week and then will have fun to move on.

I fell by now I am more or less comfortable with the arpeggios and also more or less in all five positions. I am, however, nowhere fluent in all five positions with the altered scale and the substitutions (still a lot of thinking ahead involved). I do feel though that I have the melodic minor patterns well enough under my fingers now that for the moment it is ok. But I think it will be necessary to revisit all of the material and seriously practice all five positions.