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Wild. The thing I hear is something like a Hammond B3 organ... plenty long notes. And yeah, the melodies are relatively simple, but usually pleasant, I think.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Mr. B: I know that you often sing while you play; when you don't have a guitar, can you sing the same lines? I mean, does any part of the singing suffer? Just curious.
kj
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06-18-2012 07:43 AM
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Yea, all part of being a musician... there are levels of musicianship.
I could also say to be a musician you should be able to notate or write out anything you can hear and sing anything notated... but all these skills need training.
Hearing music in your head is different than singing... singing takes training. Understanding and being able to write out what you hear also takes training.
Most start with being able to hear and understand intervals... unison, octaves and on and on etc... So you go through an ear training process... eventually you can hear and understand what you hear in your head as well as what you see on paper, you can read, notate and hear music with out your instrument...
Just as when you sight read, you recognize melodic, harmonic and rhythmic material, by recognizing what's notated, your able to stay ahead. Your hearing music that hasn't been played yet, just as you do when your soloing, your ahead of what your playing. When your reading this is constant, when your playing jazz live... can change at any moment, what you are hearing ahead can change. But that is also part of being a jazz musician, your aware of and can hear any number of possible harmonic, melodic and rhythmic directions the music could go.
We are human, we make mistakes, the better your musicianship, the less obvious the mistakes.
Reg
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Originally Posted by Richb
I don't get to far into the whole "what's a musician and what's not" arguement, but I don't see how you can play jazz if you can't hear something in your head and then go for it.That's improvising. And the more you do this the more you can "hear" just ahead of the musical situation and the more options you can hear as far as handling it.
I write this not as somebody who has mastered this, but as someone who's starting to be able to do it more consistently. I know that for a fact, when I'm playing well, I can anticipate the next musicial situation and here where I want to go, particularly in stuff I'm very familiar with, but the more jazz I play, the more I can hear where it's going. This make me understand that if I keep working at this, it will be a possibility all or most of the time.
Singing is part of this...I'm not even so concerned with being able to sing well, it's about rhythm and basic pitch movement.
I might hear a much simpler line than I play, and the "finger memory" (which is really a misnomer, fingers can't remember anything--it still comes from the brain--synapse memory) might connect a more complex line...
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Yes, and I don't even think pitch is important in singing, while playing. Look at Jarrett, Oscar Peterson and the like. The only thing that's important is that you are HEARING the music in your mind. Grunting it out may not be aesthetically pleasing, but it can serve as a stabilizing force when playing.
As I said earlier in a bizarre post, I feel the melodies in my throat, whether I sing them or not.
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Hey Henry - Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I really like your posts in this thread, all of 'em.
The stuff you sing while you're playing... if you put the guitar down, or say you go for a walk -- can you sing lines that are as good, and keep them grooving and going? Or does the guitar bring out more music (to your throat -
- love that!) Just wondering.
kj
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Thank you kojo! I think I can sing stuff that may be as good, or maybe better. I don't know. The thing is I can't SING. But it will be different than if I had a guitar. For one thing if I'm just imagining it, it's going to be less encumbered in a sense, because I'm not translating. But I don't think ultimately they'll be as good. I think I can scat bop-ish lines, or the like, for a very limited time before I run out of steam and fold like a deck of cards. But on guitar I have so many possibilities. I can superimpose all these shapes, substitute, layer chord on top of chord, throw down altered tones and extensions, neighbors, with more know how that I could just by ear alone. Originally Posted by Kojo27
Hey Henry -
I really like your posts in this thread, all of 'em.
The stuff you sing while you're playing... if you put the guitar down, or say you go for a walk -- can you sing lines that are as good, and keep them grooving and going? Or does the guitar bring out more music (to your throat - - love that!) Just wondering.
kj
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Sorry I'm late getting back to you, Henry. I'd bet it's this way with everybody, even the purest of the "purists" who claim not to play a note that wasn't absolutely intentional and meaningful and pre-heard. Unlike Richb, I don't *know* how all players play, but this is a guess. Seems that having the guitar in your lap and having the strings under your fingers -- this does something to the brain, maybe the way so many creative writers bubble over with their best lines when they're at their old familiar desk, or when dressed a certain way... Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Of course, when you're talking about coming up with more because holding a guitar lets you superimpose shapes, "layer chord on top of chord, throw down altered tones and extensions..." -- this is a different thing, but it still makes sense. I see what you're saying, I'm pretty sure.
Great playing -- keep it up!
kj
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Thank you kojo!
I think it's not so much can you play what you sing, but rather can your playing be led by your inner singing voice. Because players can do so much more than even a great singer can. Sometimes that's a bad thing, but sometimes it's a good thing. Is the playing melodic? Does the line have singable integrity? Does it communicate effectively to an audience as something memorable or as something someone might want to hear again?
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This I know about. We (normally) do not think of the words and then say them. (We couldn't talk as fast as we do, or do so many other things *while* talking if talking took much conscious effort.) Consciousness is *slow*. Sometimes we 'watch our words'---when testifying, for example, or when we're caught red-handed and don't want to say anything incriminating. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Think about this: we've all had the experience of saying something and immediately realizing it is wrong, or means the opposite of what we intended, or carries a connotation we did not intend. We say, "It sounded better in my head." If we actually *heard* it (in our heads, before saying it), how is that possible?
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So could a mute be a musician? Originally Posted by Richb
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Ha. Cool. I have a take on this as well. This is just my opinion. I think consciousness is extremely fast. Light speed. It depends of course on how you're defining "consciousness." I call it KNOWING. Words are tools of language we use to communicate. But we KNOW, or that knowledge is tucked in a deeper well, inaccessible for some reasons.
So yes, I think there is a lag, or can very often be, a lag between having a thought, thinking of words and utterance. The thought is instantaneous. The words are almost instantaneous, but the utterance can take consideration. I generally take a second or two to consider what I'm about to say. I assess who it is I'm talking to and the impact my words might have, volume and manner in which I will say it, and then note whether it was received and in what way. I think we all do this, to one degree or another, and are not exactly conscious of it.
We've all had those aphasic like moments when we just can't find the word, yet we KNOW exactly what we mean to say. There's not a lag in the knowing, it's a lag in language.
You're hungry and go to the refrigerator and make a sandwich. You might have a hard time, in one of those strange and awkward moments when you stumble over your words and can't decide exactly what to tell you wife that you're actually hungry.
Wife: "What are you doing honey?"
Me: "Hmm. I . . . Hmm. I think . . . mm. "
But YOU know. The words might deceive you, but you're not confused. There ARE many times wen you are indeed confused, but not here. I'm sure there have been times when you stumbled over words but you KNEW what you meant to say. There are all kinds of reasons for that. Attention split over too many tasks. Inebriation. Emotional upset. Anger. Whatever.
Language is composed of tools and words and symbols. They aren't consciousness itself. Consciousness, the YOU, uses language to communicate ideas to others.
Music and specifically jazz, is the same thing. Jazz is an intuitive language. That's why we practice, or why I practice. By repetitively drilling I'm making impressions on my mind, which becomes "knowing" tools and symbols to pull out of my hat intuitively.
THINKING becomes a problem. I define "thinking" as computational activity. Figure-figure, mathematical equations and setting up scenarios to analyze. Playing jazz has little to do with this. It's intuitive. All the thinking must have been done well in advance. Then playing becomes an act of KNOWING.
If you were to ask me my name, I don't have to THINK about that. I KNOW Henry is my name. I don't have to think about driving a car. If I had to THINK about it I'd get in an accident very quickly. "Where does this key go again?"
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Uh, no. It would appear that YOU think that sprinter is saying "left, right, left, right" all the way around the track because otherwise, his leg could not move! That's not how people run. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
You seem to think I think the hands are *unrelated to the brain.* Let me assure you, I do not. Playing music changes one's brain. (Here's a bit on that, though just a bit: Box1 : When the brain plays music: auditory-motor interactions in music perception and production : Nature Reviews Neuroscience )
BECAUSE the brain is so connected to the hand, much of anything mastered by the hand has a NON-conscious element. (Again, consciousness is a *slower-than-average* brain function.) This is what allows people to play faster than they can think!
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No. The opposite. It sounded to me you were saying the sprinter says, left right, left, etc. The hands are very much a part of the brain. The difference is you give more credit to the brain than I do. The brain and the hand work in conjunction. I think of the brain as that servo-mechanical network that runs the body and body activities. But the brain takes orders from somewhere under most circumstances. And sometimes it runs amok.
AS I've said before, we fundamentally disagree. And that's OK with me.
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