Swing Eighth Notes

[jster]

In this thread, I'd like to gather a bunch of video/audio of guys and gals tearing it up playing straight eighths. All eras. Scales are fine. Arpeggios are better. I imagine that a bunch of bebop solos may come to mind. I don't know Mike Stern's stuff that well, but when I saw him back in the day, that's what he was doing. Anybody have any choice items? fep's study group with Joe Elliott's book prompted me to put out this request.

Thanks

[JakeAcci]

A little pressed for time right now, so I'm sorry for a lack of video, but...Pat Martino and McCoy Tyner always come to mind. To a lesser extent Jesse Van Ruler, Jonathan Kreisberg, Coltrane, Chick Corea...a lot of people, when the tempo gets up, they're default mode is a lot of 8th notes, some more consistent than others. That youtube of Joe Diorio and Metheny, Joe plays tons of 8ths, it stuck out to me as Metheny is more rhythmic...

[jster]

Well, since nobody has any videos to pass along, I'll ask a couple of questions. In this Joe Elliott book, he has students connect arpeggios as they play over 2-5-1's and other jazz cliches and he has them do it following rules whereby:
1) they are to run the arpeggios up or down (changing directions is ok)
2) they are to connect arpeggios when a new bar begins by going to the nearest note.

Do these rules track the style of straight eighths solos from jazz history? Let's take 2 first. Do guys past or present really try to connect to the nearest note like that? Wouldn't it make more sense to try and start arpeggios on a given chord tone (e.g. the third) if you are going to design exercises to teach straight eighth soloing? And respect to 1, what percentage of the time are people just going up and down like that? Aren't they just as likely to delineate phrases with jumps?

[fep]

Well, since nobody has any videos to pass along, I'll ask a couple of questions. In this Joe Elliott book, he has students connect arpeggios as they play over 2-5-1's and other jazz cliches and he has them do it following rules whereby:
1) they are to run the arpeggios up or down (changing directions is ok)
2) they are to connect arpeggios when a new bar begins by going to the nearest note.

Do these rules track the style of straight eighths solos from jazz history? Let's take 2 first. Do guys past or present really try to connect to the nearest note like that? Wouldn't it make more sense to try and start arpeggios on a given chord tone (e.g. the third) if you are going to design exercises to teach straight eighth soloing? And respect to 1, what percentage of the time are people just going up and down like that? Aren't they just as likely to delineate phrases with jumps?

I thought we addressed this in the Study Group posts. Perhaps you want to hear from others.

I think others might see your question to infer that Elliott is telling you that this is the way he wants you to play down the road. He's not, that's why he refers to it as the connecting game and the connecting exercise.

I'm sure all strong jazz players can easily do these exercises. It trains you to think more quickly, keep track of the changes, and outline the changes. If you can easily do these exercises, fine, move on. If you can't, you need to be able to. This is really elementary stuff.

Here is what I wrote in the other thread where you posted just about the same question:

(this thread https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...s-2-3-a-3.html post #81)

I'd say I have not heard bebop players that run up and down arpeggios so mechanically as the Elliott exercises. They will play a few notes of an arpeggio, then some scale or chromatics, target a chord tone, add some silence, motifs etc.

And I think some of us may find as we are learning these new "pathways" that we will sound too mechanical for a while.

I also think that this is a good stepping stone to really get our hands/mind/ears around these arpeggios. It's also helping me think ahead and keep track of what chord is coming next.

I'm planning on following the book really closely. Get comfortable doing these exercises Elliott's way first. After that, I think it's fine to get creative and try other things. Just like the variations we have come up with in this thread. But, I repeat, I'm going to get it down Elliott's way first.

Others, now that you have some background re: the book, go ahead and chime in.

Edit: one more thing, jster, when you say straight eighth notes folks will interpret that to mean rhythmically eighth notes played straight as opposed to swing eighth notes. If you say 'consecutive eighth notes with no rests' they'll understand what you mean.

Jake thought you were asking about 'straight' as opposed to 'swing' eighth notes.

[setemupjoe]

When I was coming up my teacher would give me exercises like this. The point is to provide rules and structure to help focus on what the point of the exercise is. Don't confuse an exercise with soloing.
I may play an exercise where I can only play eighth notes and 4 note arpeggios. This forces me to concentrate on the core notes of the chords and the eighth notes stop me from stopping and starting when I get into areas of the neck I may be less comfortable with.
Your question about connecting to the next arpeggio using the nearest note is a good exercise in finding the smoothest way to transition between chords. This is hard for students as they can get locked into starting an arpeggio on the tonic or the lowest or highest note of a pattern.
The bottom line is this. Exercises are just that. Great ways to focus into one or more aspects of how to craft a good solo.
One more thing. I infer from your post you're worried this exercise may be a waste of time or be leading you in a 'wrong' direction. From what I've read I doubt that. These types of exercises can help strengthen your knowledge of the neck greatly and should be practiced diligently.

[jster]

Hey fep,

Yeah, I know what you said. I think that everything you said is perfectly reasonable for most players. But for me personally, given the way I approach fingerings, it is not at all obvious that these are "pathways" or "stepping stones." They may be road blocks and a waste of time. That is not due to Elliott's reasonable pedagogy and approach, but rather due to the specific way I approach fingerings today and in the future. I made that clear when I raised the question originally, but none of the responses addressed my underlying concern. To be blunt, as I have made it clear in the P4 thread, I have an extreme contempt for conventional fingerings. But that means that I have extra work to do when it comes to incorporating somebody else's (e.g. Elliott's) ideas into my playing. If you are interested in discussing it via PM we can do that. Out of respect for you and the thread, I have mostly abstained from going into these matters there.

I started this thread because I am interested in how players in jazz think about note selection when using arpeggios in swing eighths soloing.

[fep]

Thanks Mark, that makes sense and pretty much backs up what I was trying to say.

Off topic, I saw you play at the Observation Bar of the Queen Mary a few weeks ago. I really really enjoyed the band and your playing. I didn't realize it was you until later, I wish I would have said hi.

[jster]

Edit: one more thing, jster, when you say straight eighth notes folks will interpret that to mean rhythmically eighth notes played straight as opposed to swing eighth notes. If you say 'consecutive eighth notes with no rests' they'll understand what you mean.

Jake thought you were asking about 'straight' as opposed to 'swing' eighth notes.

Awe darnit. I was wondering about that. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mods, can you change the title to "Swing Eighth Notes"?

[setemupjoe]

Thanks Mark, that makes sense and pretty much backs up what I was trying to say.

Off topic, I saw you play at the Observation Bar of the Queen Mary a few weeks ago. I really really enjoyed the band and your playing. I didn't realize it was you until later, I wish I would have said hi.

Damn, that's too bad. I never meet anyone from these sites. I've always enjoyed your playing when you post stuff. Maybe another time.

[fep]

Hey fep,

But for me personally, given the way I approach fingerings, it is not at all obvious that these are "pathways" or "stepping stones."

Now I remember, you tune in perfect 4ths and consequently can't use Elliot's fingerings in the book. You have to do extra work.

Even still I don't think this is a fingering question, I think it's a learning of jazz question. Similar to when you play a scale, you still play the same notes as the rest of use. Or when you read music, same notes. So, when you do an arpeggio exercise, it seems you can still approach it the same as the author suggests.

Just my thoughts and suggestions. I'm trying to help. At the end of the day, make an educated decision and decide how you want to do it.

Yes, jazz players don't solo this mechanically. But since this is an exercise and a lesson, shouldn't the question be about how jazz players learned and practiced at their formative stages?

[setemupjoe]

A good solo is like a beautiful watch. To the admirer it moves almost like magic, but to the watchmaker it's all gears and mechanics going on underneath. You can't construct a watch without learning every intricacy of the mechanics involved. Same with soloing. I break solos down to so many different factors. You can't play interesting lines if you can't play scales straight up and down, or in 3rds, or 4ths or play arpeggios from the top down or the bottom up or playing every other note. All exercises seem mechanical. Your challenge is to find the music that can come out of that.
Regarding playing with 4th tuning, I don't see how that changes anything. Use your own fingerings, just don't lock yourself into only doing it one way. I play scales and arpeggios in many different ways.

[Dana]

I always liked Mike Stern's solo on Suspone. Here's a live version of it.

The original version, recorded on Mike Brecker's album Don't Try This at Home has some swinging eight note lines.

[Reg]

Here's some examples of different swing feels... There from old videos I posted on this forum for something.... They're pretty rough, usually just on the spot...
Version of funky Happy Day

Version of Nothing Personal... straight ahead swing

Here's latin swing

Here's another latin feel, Nicas Dream

This is cool... this was first version of original tune which is on last CD released earlier this year... cool to hear first takes. My typical funky swing feel...

Reg

[jster]

Even still I don't think this is a fingering question,

It most definitely is. I have 7 arpeggio fingerings that sit in scales. But I have 4 other far more musical fingerings that don't sit in scales. If you tried to run the scales underneath them, you would have to do four notes per string. Moreover, you can associate these 4 fingerings with the 4 fingerings for the following chord in 4ish different ways giving you many ways to think about how you want to associate the arpeggios that belong to the major (or minor) scale. These more musical ones I tend to link together by using parallel phrasing as a default rather than nearest note.

I think it's a learning of jazz question.

It is possibly that also. But that is really my question: how important is this whole idea of nearest note in jazz? If it is very important, then I want to give it a fair bit of weight and that will affect how I think about choosing and connecting my arpeggios. If it is just an artefact of Elliott's pedagogy, then I will not give it much weight. I'm not trying to pick a fight with Elliott or his pedagogy, just asking a naive question about swing eighth solos. Here is another way of asking the question: Does Elliott just have the requirement to switch to the nearest note of the next arpeggio to deter students from, for example in an extreme case, always running the arpeggio from the root; or is he trying to capture something present in jazz guitar solos?

[onetruevibe]

A good solo is like a beautiful watch. To the admirer it moves almost like magic, but to the watchmaker it's all gears and mechanics going on underneath. You can't construct a watch without learning every intricacy of the mechanics involved. Same with soloing. I break solos down to so many different factors. You can't play interesting lines if you can't play scales straight up and down, or in 3rds, or 4ths or play arpeggios from the top down or the bottom up or playing every other note. All exercises seem mechanical. Your challenge is to find the music that can come out of that.
Regarding playing with 4th tuning, I don't see how that changes anything. Use your own fingerings, just don't lock yourself into only doing it one way. I play scales and arpeggios in many different ways.

First off - I'm a beginner working through the Elliott study, and it's putting sweat on my brow. Playing 8th notes is tough. It's like my brain can't keep up...I think ahead to the next arp and blow the one I'm on.

This just highlights the gaps in my ability (which is good - yet frustrating). With jazz, talent only gets you so far (unless you're reg), and I've run out. So, I'm glad to have this book and study group to pull me forward. I just hope I can contribute in a positive way.

Thanks for this analogy re: the watch and watchmaker. It helps put in perspective the nuance of what we're trying to accomplish here. I'm no longer an admirer, but studying to be the maker. Good stuff to hear coming from a pro. :thumbsup:

[jster]

Thanks Reg as always. So when I listen to you, for example, around the 3 minute mark of Nica's Dream, you don't seem to be putting much weight on how you connect lines from bar to bar. You have a feel and a pulse and of course you are not going to jump down an octave and half at the next bar, but you there may be a half step, whole step, minor third, major third jump from the note that ends one bar and begins the next. Is that fair to say?

Also, I have been waiting to find out how good you really are using the paynow/Kessel criterion: Where do you park at Real Guitars?

[Reg]

Thanks Reg as always. So when I listen to you, for example, around the 3 minute mark of Nica's Dream, you don't seem to be putting much weight on how you connect lines from bar to bar. You have a feel and a pulse and of course you are not going to jump down an octave and half at the next bar, but you there may be a half step, whole step, minor third, major third jump from the note that ends one bar and begins the next. Is that fair to say?

Also, I have been waiting to find out how good you really are using the paynow/Kessel criterion: Where do you park at Real Guitars?

Cool... thanks

That was kind of the reason I just posted... some random vids... they were just simple rough first takes trying to show something???

So, yes that is very fair to say. I don't get hung up on note to note connections. Unless I'm in some college hall, tryin to look cool etc...

The last ting I was thinking about was actual fingerings... I hear and think sounds and try and play what I think I hear. Sometimes it's just a to get going in a direction. Different fingerings have very different feels, articulations and phrasing. Sometimes I use a mechanical style of fingering to help me develop a style or feel for soloing, comping etc... I usually play with phrases or blocks of notes.

One thing for sure... I don't like traditional voice leading... I hate straight, least amount of movement etc... type of lines.

I think if you understand the concept of voice leading, and are aware that their are different methods of controlling how we deal with voice leading. Different tonal systems, which have different general tendencies... Long story short... you don't need to master each method to be able to move on.

Generally as your technique and musical skills, both on your instrument and in your head improve... as long as you understand the CONCEPT... you'll be able to cover most APPLICATIONS, down the line.

The bottom line... you need to make choices for yourself. Don't let others tell you what or how to play. Let them give you advice etc... In the end your responsible for how you play.
Reg

[jster]

One thing for sure... I don't like traditional voice leading... I hate straight, least amount of movement etc... type of lines.

I think if you understand the concept of voice leading, and are aware that their are different methods of controlling how we deal with voice leading. Different tonal systems, which have different general tendencies... Long story short... you don't need to master each method to be able to move on.

So do other people/institutions teach that one should connect arpeggios/scales by moving to the nearest note? I always thought "voice leading" had to do with just chords. By "traditional voice leading" is that what you mean here, connecting to the nearest note when connecting arpeggios/scales?? Do they actually teach this idea to sax players?

The idea seems somewhat strange to me because while I certainly understand the idea of smooth lines and minimizing big jumps, I would think that far more weight would be given to whether one starts a line on the root or the third or fifth or... Seems to be a tension between saying chord tones are at the heart of the matter, then to say ok, begin your line on the nearest chord tone. At the micro level, it seems somewhat at odds with melody. That is to say, I would think that melody would be picky about which chord tones to use. Sure melody doesn't like big jumps, but all chords overlap and so you aren't going to get many big jumps anyway. The arpeggios themselves have major thirds within them, and the root of the next chord is always a tritone or less away, so it is only P4 (perfect fourth) and TT that seem to be really in play. I just looked at Misty. Here are the the melody intervals at the bar breaks:

+m2
0
-m3
+m3
+m2
-m3
-P5
+m2
+M2
+M2
+m2
0
-M2
+M2
+P4
-M2
0
-P4

Interesting in that there are a lot of m2's, so score one for the nearest note idea. On the other hand, there are some 4ths and 5ths.

Now I'm kind of talking myself into this nearest note idea. Maybe the point is that by going to the nearest note all the time we are sweeping up all those m2's. And what I like about that is that those are almost always where the tension and release are to be found. Is that part of the motivation behind traditional single note voice leading? Tension and release at the half-steps?

[Reg]

When we play single note lines, or voiced lines, whatever system of organizing the tonal system applies to all aspects of whatever we're playing.

Just as you can analysis chord progressions, melodic lines also imply harmony.

Just as every chordal attack has a complete harmonic structure implied, so does every melodic attack.

We choose to hear or play what we want, there are usually choices to complete structures.

All the same basic musical considerations apply. Melodic lines have implications... What's the difference between the interval of B to F and F to B.... both sound like tritone... B to F could be G7 in key of C and the F to B could be F maj7#11, my point is there are references and implications with melodic lines just as with chordal movement.

There always seems to be a balance with the application of any concept. When we play, we're either aware or we simply let our instincts take over. We trust our instincts to be able to represent our understanding of what that balance is. Usually a combination...

Tension resolve, dissonance consonance... all or any of the usual verbal descriptions are basically descriptions of applications of different elements from musical concepts.

So when we discuss melodic lines... if we simply discuss interval movement... we might be missing a few things. Your point of what each note represents or implies opens that door to many more levels of understanding than basic melodic guide lines.

There are not simply one liners, general rules of thumb...
All methods of teaching melodic movement preach same general guidelines... I'm sure your aware as are most. That is the starting point, a reference to build from.

Obviously these are all my opinions... my approach to music, not just jazz.
Reg

[Jazzpunk]

This is cool... this was first version of original tune which is on last CD released earlier this year... cool to hear first takes. My typical funky swing feel...

Reg

Dig this. Is the CD available online?