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Hi this is my first post so hopefully it's in the right place
I've been playing guitar now for around 5 years and have been listening to jazz for a while however most of my playing is based on rock/blues ideas.
I know some of the theory behind jazz guitar but I'm getting to the stage now were I really want to start applying some of my knowledge into actual playing. I'm always so impressed by guys who can play smooth flowing lines over changes. I know kinda the basic gist of it theoretically however when I go to do it in real time it does not work
I want to develop the facility to improvise over jazz standards and 'play the changes' and make it sound natural and coherent.
So basically what I am wondering is if I can get some advice in terms of what materials/methods/ideas I could use to get closer to my goal.
Thanks for your help in advance.Last edited by Crake; 05-13-2012 at 07:18 AM.
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05-13-2012 06:03 AM
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Welcome aboard Crake, this is the plays to learn more about jazz guitar, a lot of great people here to answer your questions.
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Wanna learn blues / rock? go learn 2 pentatonic shapes and figure out the main licks everyone plays. Coupla chord grips, a distortion pedal and you're good to go. Might take you a year to get good enough for the stage. Maybe you'll get bored after a while, or hear some Wes or Pass... "hey, I like this Jazz sound, maybe I'll buy a book and learn me those scales and chords"....
Not having a go, just letting you know my own story. 30 years later and I'm still figuring it out. The plain truth is high level Jazz guitar is hard, real hard. In my own carefully considered opinion it could be around a thousand times harder to improvise like Wes than it is to improvise like Page or Clapton. Think you're a genius coz you figured out all your fave rock solos after a year of playing? It's not gonna help you in Jazz, infact. it will probably hurt way more than you realize. Rock/blues playing forces habits that run counter to the skills required in Jazz. You can't just pick a scale and "skate" over changes, you must learn to target notes in a predictable way that convey the underlying harmony. There are hundreds of concepts to choose from, endless combinations of devices that need to become 2nd nature, not just all arps, extensions, substitutions, scales (several types), patterns, chromatic approaches, licks etc, but how to use them in a way you "pre hear". Being able to pre hear lines that change pitch collections for every chord as well as changing momentary key centers very often, takes years of very switched on training, just to get to a basic level! Then, moving to mastery, you will want to find your own idiosyncratic style by slowly evolving your own unique voice.
There is no one book, because there is no one way. Every great player finds their own way, in essence, writing their own book. If you're serious, you begin this very quest and figure it out as you go along. You learn the way all the greats did, by learning the great solos, usually note for note. But of course, you don't stop there, you must figure out why the notes fit, where they will work in your own playing and how to milk your favorite ideas in ways that don't sound like you're playing set lines. Break things into cells and learn to join them so all your improvs can sound unique each time you solo over a chorus. You just can't bluff this shit, you'll be found out even by jazz beginners. Your brain has to hurt for years, you'll need a thousand concepts under your fingers, not just one or two....
Of course, you could do a Jimmy Bruno type course and find a kind of short cut to sounding like all his other students within just a few years. If your jazz ambitions are modest, or you can't wait to impress your rock buddies with some jazz type playing that confuses them a little, maybe these kinds of courses will get you there. Will certainly confuse you less than the endless supply of methods available in books and forums, although, there is excellent basic information available right here with the free lessons this site offers. along with Matt Warnock's site. Also jazzadvice.com will replace about 10 thousand useless books with excellent worldly advice on just about all aspects of jazz playing.
They say 10,000 hours to mastery- but 10,000 hours of logical, intelligent practice, not mindless noodling.
Good luck!Last edited by princeplanet; 05-13-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Although I don't think the Jimmy Bruno slam was necessary, Prince has some good points.
For now, though, I'd encourage you to find a good teacher in your area, or "online" only if your basic guitar skills are good enough. For a great overall jazz improv book, I recommend Hal Crook's "Ready, Aim, Improvise!" or one of Jody Fisher's jazz guitar books. Among other things, Hal's book helps you establish a solid practice routine, so you're not noodling, like Prince mentioned above.
Have fun -- it's a great journey!
Marc
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PP may sound harsh, but what he is saying is essentially true. You kind of have to find your own way. I too came from a rock background - Hendrix, Page, Clapton - and I thought I was a pretty good guitarist (even daring to call myself a musician) until I started to learn to play jazz. And like most people, at first I was looking for that "one trick" that would instantly make me sound hip. Fast forward 3 intensive years of practicing and playing, and I'm now what I consider a mediocre early-intermediate jazz musician. I have so much more to learn.
I would say the biggest thing you can do to start to learn to play jazz is to listen to jazz records a lot. I made jazz my preferred genre of listening early on, and after maybe a year or 18 months of listening every day for perhaps an hour (CDs in my car on my commute to/from work), I found that a lot of the articulation somehow got embedded in me, so that it just started to come out of my playing without me thinking about it much. Listening also helps your ears grow. It took me months of listening to Green Dolphin Street before I was able to finally hear the I - IV7 - iii7 - VI7 turnaround. but once I got that sound in my ears, I started to hear it in a lot of other tunes as well. So yeah, listening is important.
I would also say, get yourself a good teacher if at all possible, even if it's only for a few months. No sense in reinventing the wheel, and they can provide valuable illumination on important aspects of jazz that you might not otherwise be sensitive to.
Most essentially, you should be inquisitive and exacting of one's self, and really want to play jazz. Self-motivation in this genre is essential. Nobody is going to hand anything to you as you learn. But if they sense in you a real desire to know more, to improve, then they're going to probably offer to help in whatever capacity they can. I've found this to be true, especially here in the forums, but even after getting my ass handed to me on the bandstand.
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Slam? Gee, I thought I was doing Jimmy a favor, a new recruit perhaps...
Originally Posted by marcwhy
Seriously, I think Jimmy's course is well suited for many player's aspirations, but compared with the hard won satisfaction of figuring it out for yourself, it will feel like being spoon fed. Can you think of a single great jazz player on any instrument that was spoon fed? Great classical players maybe....
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Thanks for all of your help and comments. I think most of your points are valid princeplanet. Although I have met some players who really think that jazz is easy as pie because they grew up listening to it and being exposed to some great players early on.
Thanks for the links to the sites, I'll definitely check them out.
I'm slowly learning arpeggios and applying them to different standards which I am finding really helpful. Do you have any advice on adding extensions/chromatics as well to make my playing more interesting?
Thanks again for your help
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Yeah the idea of learning through intensive listening is great as that is effectively immersing yourself in the 'language' of jazz.
I did have lessons with a great teacher for a while and I've still got the material that he gave me to learn. I'm definitely going to start practicing consistently and hopefully I will reap the rewards.
Thanks for your help and comments FJ.
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Crake, if you are interested in arpeggios as applied to standards, you may be interested to know that we just started up a new study group using Joe Elliot's book that does just that. You are welcome to join, of course (and I can assist you in getting introductory material if you can't get the book quickly).
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ead-index.html
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Bottom line is it's what makes sense for you. That's why there are so many books, teachers, methods, and so on. What works or whose explanations make sense to you, might not to others. Even then you will hit a point its time to switch to another method, approach, teacher, to keep expanding. Then over time go back and check out stuff you studied earlier and you'll find insights you didn't see/understand before.
Last edited by docbop; 05-13-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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Be careful, there are guys out there that like to give the impression that jazz comes easy for them, i'd be suspicious.... You're meant to be impressed like as in " gee, he must be one of those genius natural born freaks, while I'm just a schmuck!..." While it is true that exposure at an early age puts you on the right road early (ie, not having to "undo" rock/blues habits etc), even those with impossibly gifted ears spent up to 10 hrs a day for years (Parker, Coltrane etc) Originally Posted by Crake
Thanks for all of your help and comments. I think most of your points are valid princeplanet. Although I have met some players who really think that jazz is easy as pie because they grew up listening to it and being exposed to some great players early on.
Thanks for the links to the sites, I'll definitely check them out.
I'm slowly learning arpeggios and applying them to different standards which I am finding really helpful. Do you have any advice on adding extensions/chromatics as well to make my playing more interesting?
Thanks again for your help
to get "good". As you get better, you will appreciate what "good" means, you will begin to see through the "flash with no substance" one trick pony guys who impress you the first time...
You may be like I was, "Yeah but I'm different, I pick stuff up quickly, I've got a good ear and great technique already..." Surely once you work out your first Wes solo, you'll be able to improvise as well as he did, right?
As for advice on the other stuff you mentioned, I already gave it to you. You gotta do some work. If you want to be spoon fed, there are some sites that cater to that, or maybe go ask your pals that think "Jazz is easy as pie"!
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Thanks for your kind offer, I would like to join but I have exams in the next few weeks which I need to concentrate a lot of my time on. I will endeavour to practice consistently and will be able to use the break between to semesters to practice a lot. Originally Posted by FatJeff
Thanks again for your help and insight.
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Thank-you for your constructive criticism. Initially I did think that you were being intentionally (and maybe overly) harsh but I think that your statements do hold merit to them. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I am going to put in the hard work as much as I can and hopefully I can make the most of it by using your sources and advice.
Thanks again.
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Cool, finally, I'd just like to add that, although it's a long road, it's rewarding and definitely worth every minute you put in. Some will even say that the journey, and not the destination, is what it's all about. Being a journeyman myself, I can't tell you what it's like to reach the destination, but even from where I am, I am inclined to agree. Originally Posted by Crake
Happy trails.
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dont think it its true to say a rock/blues player finds learning jazz harder. Two of the best Jazz guitarists, Frank Gambale and Mike Stern both say that to be a good Jazz guitarist you need to have a good foundation of blues playing. All the inflections and nuances of how to get different sounds, with a small group of notes sets you in good stead for Jazz.
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Well, there's blues concepts that a Jazz player may have as fundaments, but that is quite different to a Rock / Blues player who has become only accustomed to using one or 2 pentatonic scales over everything! A jazz player's blues is infinitely more complex. Originally Posted by Mike A
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With all the respect in the world to you, princeplanet, this simply isn't true. Especially if you're talking about transcribing -- writing the notes on paper. The forced repeated listening can't hurt, and it probably helps many. But mimicking the solo and playing it? What has this to do with improvising? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Besides, Tal Farlow never copied solos. Julian Lage has never transcribed a thing in his life (I hear from a fellow who plays with Julian) and doesn't want to be transcribed. Ditto for Bill Frissell; ditto for Mick Goodrick - never transcribed or stole solos. They learned the elements that go into jazz, they sat down and worked their arses off learning to do it and make it sound jazzy, and they went out and played!
Listening to jazz must be crucial to learning to play it. Mimicry, though -- nah. I don't see the logic in that at all.
BTW, if you honestly believe that Eric Clapton isn't a great improviser, you need to listen closer, imho. Complexity does not guarantee greatness, and simplicity does not preclude greatness.
Kojo
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Sure, but I never said "write the notes down on paper" - transcribing does not necessarily mean that, most on this forum agree about that. I also think the better players on this forum seem to agree that "mimicry" actually is the best way to start off your own vocab. After a while you loosen it up, change it around, make up your own lines etc. But for a lot of it it's about phrasing. You can't get a feel for Bird's phrasing until you actually step in the shoes of his actual solos. Same with Wes, same with any of the great phrase masters. Everyone should always remember Wes DID learn most of Charlie Christian's solos note for note. Originally Posted by Kojo27
Do you think he comes off like a CC clone?
Perhaps there are different ways for folks to get to their respective goals, who cares how you got there, so long as you get there, right? For me, learning scales, arps and patterns never made me sound "jazzy", what clicked for me was stepping inside of great lines. You know, learning the language, not the alphabet......
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You need to learn the alphabet to write too, not just the language Originally Posted by princeplanet
Perhaps there are different ways for folks to get to their respective goals, who cares how you got there, so long as you get there, right? For me, learning scales, arps and patterns never made me sound "jazzy", what clicked for me was stepping inside of great lines. You know, learning the language, not the alphabet......
A lot of information can only be extracted if you know what is going on, and that is what is stopping you from sounding like a clone.
For me it was all of it, I've transcribed, learned solos by heart but also a lot of etudes, scales, arps.
One thing that many forget to work on when studying changes, arps and scales: Compose solos! Compose lines! that is how you get them into your playing and your ears.
If you just practice them then you don't get to use them.
Jens
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And I said, "Especially if you mean transcribing....writing the notes on paper..." -- but what I wrote about was copying solos, whether by ear, from tab, from Mel Bay, from videos, or whatever. It isn't essential, and to say that "all the greats" had to learn jazz by mimicry is just not true. I don't call myself a jazz player yet, but I can improvise melodic music, and the creative process of improvisation is the same - whether over simple harmony or complex... and I might be surprised, but (and this is NOT to boast!) I've never once felt unsure about working out my own stuff, never felt that I'd better get to copying other people. Maybe I'm stupid, maybe I'm in for a crash... but my gut feelings are usually true. If I can improvise (play music I imagine, or pre-hear) melodically over non-jazz progressions, I see no reason why I can't improvise over jazz progressions, using stuff I work out for myself (while everybody is over there copying) and sound like *me* -- and I suspect it'll be as interesting as the non-jazz stuff I play now. I have the raw material (scales, arpeggios, good technique, etc.) that "the greats" had... and after hearing so much jazz, I know what sounds like jazz and what doesn't. I don't want to sound like Wes - as great as he was. When you work out, for your own unique self, a way, some way - any way - by working and working and sifting and keeping and discarding and organizing and reworking the great mountain of raw material, so that you can play Satin Doll and all the tunes every jazzer plays, THEN you have a sound and a style of "doing" jazz that is yours alone. I can't think of a greater payoff than that. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sure, but I never said "write the notes down on paper" - transcribing does not necessarily mean that, most on this forum agree about that. I also think the better players on this forum seem to agree that "mimicry" actually is the best way to start off your own vocab. After a while you loosen it up, change it around, make up your own lines etc. But for a lot of it it's about phrasing. You can't get a feel for Bird's phrasing until you actually step in the shoes of his actual solos. Same with Wes, same with any of the great phrase masters. Everyone should always remember Wes DID learn most of Charlie Christian's solos note for note.
Do you think he comes off like a CC clone?
Perhaps there are different ways for folks to get to their respective goals, who cares how you got there, so long as you get there, right? For me, learning scales, arps and patterns never made me sound "jazzy", what clicked for me was stepping inside of great lines. You know, learning the language, not the alphabet......
The fellow I know who plays with Goodrick and Lage says that many players immerse themselves in the licks and solos of others because they lack confidence that a way of "doing" jazz that they came up with could be good; or they're afraid they won't sound good to other jazz players, if they spend their initial learning time with the big heap of raw material, and emerge from their rooms one day and say to the world, "This is how *I* am going to do it - this is my way of getting through Satin Doll."
He says that if you can HEAR, and PLAY a jazzy-sounding line (and if you know your guitar and your theory, etc.), you can go straight to "your style" and bypass all the licks and solos and especially the transcribing. And if you can't play a jazzy-sounding line, keep listening to Bird and such players - and keep playing -- all kinds of music. You'll come to feel it and hear it, or not. Copying others' solos won't speed the process of coming to feel and hear jazz, though the intense listening that's required might.
Jens, I have no idea what this means! Originally Posted by JensL
YES! Improv is spontaneous composition. So, if you can't compose a solo with all the time in the world on your hands, how can you expect to compose one with 10,000 eyes on you and your fingers?One thing that many forget to work on when studying changes, arps and scales: Compose solos! Compose lines! that is how you get them into your playing and your ears.
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"A lot of information can only be extracted if you know what is going on, and that is what is stopping you from sounding like a clone."
Sorry to be unclear. If you are transcribing/learning a solo or lick, then if you can recognize what it is (arpeggio, scale, chromatic approach etc. etc.) Then you can learn not only the lick but the melodic or harmonic device that is used in the lick, which makes you able to make your own licks rather than playing only that one phrase you've transcribed.
Jens
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I think transcribing is valuable, but mostly because it will give you bits and piece of language to use over smaller pieces of entire tunes. You need to understand how each bit of language relates to the underlying harmony. Then you need to play with that language to vary it. Then you will find (in the practice room) other similar lines that are "yours" which you can use.
Learning entire solos without paying any attention to how you can use smaller portions of it in your playing is pretty useless.
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I think that copying and playing along with solos/licks helps internalize the feel of various players on a different level than just listening.
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
+1
And the concepts behind the bits and pieces actually resonate with me more when I directly transcribe them.
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For me transcribing is a very small piece of what I do. Imo, the value of transcribing and this claim that it is the holy grail is way overblown. To say that Wes transcribed doesn't mean that much as 1) we don't know what % of the time he spent transcribing, 2) we don't know how much it actually helped him and 3) he may have been a genius and it's not necessarily valid that what he did will work for others.
The whole concept of looking at what the greats did doesn't necessarily prove anything. He was great and he used a fender medium pick, I should use a fender medium pick. Perhaps the fender pick is not what made him great?
And doesn't Kojo make a very strong point when he said Julian Lage doesn't transcribe?
Wouldn't it be just as valid to look at someone who did a lot of transcribing but doesn't play well to prove the negative.
Originally Posted by fep
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