Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 4, 5 and 6

[MarkRhodes]

Just checking, guys. Still in this part of the book. I play the connection game 2 times a day at least, shooting for 3. Things are improving, but I want to linger over this rather than rush ahead and add something before I have this solid. (I'm working on some other things as well: tunes, and soloing over blues in various keys and over rhythm changes.) This is really helping me, though. I realize how grand it would be to have all those arps under my command all over the neck--but for now, it's one-day-at-a-time!

[gingerjazz]

Hi Mark,have you tried playing 1235 over the chords of rhythm changes it sounds really cool and outlines the chords really well,i think Charlie parker used this a bit over fast changes and turnarounds.

[MarkRhodes]

Hi Mark,have you tried playing 1235 over the chords of rhythm changes it sounds really cool and outlines the chords really well,i think Charlie parker used this a bit over fast changes and turnarounds.

I can take that pattern (-and others) through the cycle, but I haven't done it with rhythm changes yet. I'm working on lines by Herb Ellis that he played out of a few simple shapes, then I see what I can do out of those same shapes.

I'm sure when I get the connection game down better, I'll be using it for sections of those changes (-and others).

[MarkRhodes]

I have a question about the vii chord in minor keys.

Initially, Elliott gives that chord as a bvii7 (for example, in D-, it would be a C7.) Later he switches to a natuarl-7th diminished (in D-, it would be a C# diminished).
Then in the reference / worksheets section, that chord isn't even shown.

It took me longer than I would like for you to know to realize that the rationale for the natural-7 diminished is that that root is the 3rd of the V7 chord (in D-, the V7 is A7, whose 3rd is C#.) A-ha!

So how do you guys think about it? Or do you think about it? When I play the seven-arps exercise each morning, I play the bvii7 in minor keys (-for me, D- and A-), not the natural-7 diminished. I could switch but haven't.

[Frank67]

I have a question about the vii chord in minor keys.

Initially, Elliott gives that chord as a bvii7 (for example, in D-, it would be a C7.) Later he switches to a natuarl-7th diminished (in D-, it would be a C# diminished).
Then in the reference / worksheets section, that chord isn't even shown.

It took me longer than I would like for you to know to realize that the rationale for the natural-7 diminished is that that root is the 3rd of the V7 chord (in D-, the V7 is A7, whose 3rd is C#.) A-ha!

So how do you guys think about it? Or do you think about it? When I play the seven-arps exercise each morning, I play the bvii7 in minor keys (-for me, D- and A-), not the natural-7 diminished. I could switch but haven't.

Dear Mark,

I have never studied music theory academically - so somebody else might want to correct me on this.

The diminished chord itself is not part of the harmonized minor scale. The seventh degree is a bVII7 chord. The first context the dimished chord comes up is its use as the canonical substitution for the dominant seventh chord on theseventh degree in a minor context.

In my book, it is always possible to substitute any dominant seventh chord by a diminished chord or arpeggio a half step up. This creates a dominant seventh b9 sound that is very pleasant to my ears. So i am not sure whether one should think of this substituion only in the context of minor keys since its application is more general.

I love the sound of the dimishedd arpeggio over dominant seventh chords. It is also used a lot by the great gypsy players.

[MarkRhodes]

The diminished chord itself is not part of the harmonized minor scale. The seventh degree is a bVII7 chord. The first context the diminished chord comes up is its use as the canonical substitution for the dominant seventh chord on the seventh degree in a minor context.

In my book, it is always possible to substitute any dominant seventh chord by a diminished chord or arpeggio a half step up.

Thanks, Frank. At this point, I'm less concerned with soloing over the changes than with playing the seven arpeggios in a row. For that, I'll stick with the bvii7 chord. I too love the sound of a diminished arpeggio over a dominant seventh chord. (I love a lot of gypsy jazz, for that matter.)

[MarkRhodes]

I've created 5-minute MP3 soundfiles (made in BiAB) for each of Situations I-IV, both in C and F (or Am and Dm). 110bpm. For those interested:

Thanks, Jeff! I somehow didn't notice this before. I've bookmarked the page and will use these for practice later today.

[MarkRhodes]

For me, 40 minutes is too much.

I'm going to interpret that differently. 4 situations times 5 minutes equals 20 minutes per day. Vary the patterns as I see fit within the session or even between days.

That's how I take it, fep. Otherwise, it would be overkill.

[cubistguitar]

Well, I'm playing a sorta halting version of connecting game, you know, like when every chord changes. It is getting better, a little at the time. I have been just doing the first situation/ first position Mainly been practicing thinking ahead to the next chord, so i don't blow the transition from one arp to the next. I think i already feel some forward progress in my chord connecting. I will expand this and practice till i feel comfortable making a video or sound clip.

[cubistguitar]

Defintely making progress at this now. I have some grasp of the connecting game for pattern I major and pattern II minor, situation 1 thru 4, not convincing at any speed, but there and growing under my hands, I don't feel like i have to think ahead greatly just change chords when its time

This is significant to me, i was not getting the best from this book before, A matter of fact i have never really put this much work into strict position playing and i love it, i feel this is a weakness i need to address, hell i didn't really see the importance of strict position playing before,

I will post a run at those tracks Jeff made in the next few days

[cubistguitar]

Well, my schedule is not the best this past few days, the kids just went back to school Monday and I have been off the guitar some days like Sunday. However, I am making progress. I feel I am getting pretty good at connecting in Sit. 1/Pos.I major key. I put some time into Sit1/ Pos III and dang is that not a bit harder to do right now. I play more wrong notes and make funny connections, but I am getting there.

I have played through the minor just a little and again I am pretty much going strong in Pos I and sound like an idiot at Pos III. At least i know what to work at.I will try to post a video this week, thanks for the excellent study group again!!!

[Frank67]

Well, my schedule is not the best this past few days, the kids just went back to school Monday and I have been off the guitar some days like Sunday. However, I am making progress. I feel I am getting pretty good at connecting in Sit. 1/Pos.I major key. I put some time into Sit1/ Pos III and dang is that not a bit harder to do right now. I play more wrong notes and make funny connections, but I am getting there.

I have played through the minor just a little and again I am pretty much going strong in Pos I and sound like an idiot at Pos III. At least i know what to work at.I will try to post a video this week, thanks for the excellent study group again!!!

Congrats on progress! I hope you find time for more practice. It is hard work but at the end of the day very rewarding to work through the excersizes patiently.

[cubistguitar]

Congrats on progress! I hope you find time for more practice. It is hard work but at the end of the day very rewarding to work through the excersizes patiently.

Thanks Frank, I really feel good about getting some of these wheels turning in the right direction. I love to work on these weaknesses patiently, it gets me to new little tiny plateaus, and I thought my plateaus were all behind me. HA HA

[AlsoRan]

I have a question about the vii chord in minor keys.

Initially, Elliott gives that chord as a bvii7 (for example, in D-, it would be a C7.) Later he switches to a natuarl-7th diminished (in D-, it would be a C# diminished).
Then in the reference / worksheets section, that chord isn't even shown.

It took me longer than I would like for you to know to realize that the rationale for the natural-7 diminished is that that root is the 3rd of the V7 chord (in D-, the V7 is A7, whose 3rd is C#.) A-ha!

So how do you guys think about it? Or do you think about it? When I play the seven-arps exercise each morning, I play the bvii7 in minor keys (-for me, D- and A-), not the natural-7 diminished. I could switch but haven't.

I have been intently studying this book and for the life of me I can't find what you are referring to. Do you think you could give some page numbers, Mark?

Thanks in advance.

[Frank67]

I have been intently studying this book and for the life of me I can't find what you are referring to. Do you think you could give some page numbers, Mark?

Thanks in advance.

Hi AlsoRan,

when I first read Mark's question I was also frantically searching through the book. I think if you look at page 23 (chapter 7) there are the substitution rules for the minor key families. There you have the IVmi7 substitution for the IImi7b5 chord and the diminished substitution for the V7 chord. But Elliot never asked us to seriously practice the dimished arpeggios and apparently is more fond of the loc#2 as spicing up the IImi7b5 chord. It is true that the IVmi7 over the IImi7b5 chord is not a substitution that creates a lot of tension (at least to my ears). But I really like the sound of the diminished arpeggios (there are only two fingerings because of its symmetry).

Enjoy practicing!

[cubistguitar]

I have been intently studying this book and for the life of me I can't find what you are referring to. Do you think you could give some page numbers, Mark?

Thanks in advance.

When he introduces substitution, he lists the diatonic subs like using III min7 or vi min7 for the I chord. He also suggests vii dim7 for the V7 in the minor key. Not at the book right now, but he def mention this relationship, but doesn't add it to his worksheets. Maybe he doesn't wanna talk about the V7b9 suggested by this sub just yet in the book.

[AlsoRan]

wow...

I read ahead through later chapters and I missed this nuance.

While with the major substitutions, he gives you examples of each type of substitution, and the resulting sounds/chords you created, with the minor chords, he only addressed (page 24, "Substitutions in Minor Keys") the bIIIma7 chord over the Imi7 chords (which makes a Cmi9 sound).

This book was so consistent until this part. Oh well.

Good catch folks! Thank you!

[Frank67]

Hi AlsoRan,

I do not think that there is anything wrong with practicing these minor substitutions in the same way as the major substitutions. I think that whatever helps us improve is a good idea and it also doesn't mean that we are sidestepping the method. I am certainly practicing the substitutions that Elliot has layed out for the minor keys and a few others as well (mentioned in the later threads).

Enjoy practice!

[AlsoRan]

Frank,

I definitely don't want to come across as knocking the book so I apologize if I sounded that way.

One of the things I love about this book is the way everything and I mean everything was well explained and then backed up with an example. He even uses the same wording over and over again, restating what was learned and then adding to it. He did this at least with the chapters I have looked at.

It strikes me as a bit strange that he did not complete the thought and tell us we would not be using the VIIdim7 substitution despite mentioning it.

Who knows, he may have been the victim of a poor editor.

But using this book has brought together so many things I used to know or "kind of" know. I am in fep's debt for coming up an leading this thread.

I will call these studies "extra credit work" and will pursue practicing with that diminished arpeggio scale as well.

Take Care.

[Frank67]

Hi AlsoRan,

You certainly did not come across the wrong way.

I am also grateful for the book bringing together things that i never thought i can do and make them happen. I get a lotout of it and hope to do it to the very end.

+1 on everything else and in particular the credit to fep!

[fep]

Thanks guys

I get so much joy out of learning the guitar, sometimes I think I prefer practicing and learning to actually performing. That seems backwards but I think, "just do what makes one most happy".

I'm an enthusiastic student who loves to share back and forth with other students.

The credit goes right back to all of you for making this possible.

[cubistguitar]

While we are showing the love for the study group, I have to mention that I am not a jazz player , love the music, but have always played rock guitar, my first love. The patience I have given myself and this book has already yeilded some results of note and I attribute that directly to the study group being here to sound off on and come back to as a renewal of the commitment I wanted to give this work. I feel much more melody creeping into my left hand all the time. My right hand is doing great with all this alternate work with just one or two note per string is good work for it as well.

[Badge]

Hi all

I'm going to join the party a bit late - hope that is ok. I'm going to jump in at beginning chapter 5 level (having got to there on my own).

Can I please just confirm the initial gaol for the connections game - to get situation I and II proficient in pattern 1 major and situation III and IV proficient in pattern II minor?

Thanks!

Badge

[Frank67]

Hi Badge,

Welcome to the studygroup! I think your description of the chapter goals is correct.

Enjoy practicing and post videos!

All the best,
Frank

[Frank67]

Hi Badge,

Welcome to the studygroup! I think your description of the chapter goals is correct.

Enjoy practicing and post videos!

All the best,
Frank